View Full Version : New engine won't turn over
I have just finished installing the VVTi engine from Rob Oldham's rolled car into my 1998 VVTi RZS but the car won't start. The starter motor clicks but the engine does not turn over at all. The battery is fully charged.
When we were fitting the stock Torque Converter (which had been dropped on the floor earlier when removing it from the old blown engine) I was able to turn the engine over ok by means of a spanner on the crank pulley, but now I can't, it's completely solid.
When I was fitting the gearbox to the engine I couldn't manually slide the bell housing all the way up to meet the engine. There was approximately a 1cm gap. So I pulled it up the remainder of the way by tightening the bell housing bolts. There didn't seem to be any unusual resistance as I did this.
I suppose my next move is to remove the gearbox and see if the engine then turns over ok, right? Any other ideas what I've done wrong or suggestions to try?
Thanks guys.
Just a thought here and assuming all cam timing is correct ...wip the plugs out first to eliminate compression so it makes it easier to turn over by hand ..then get under the car and remove the bell housing inspection covers. Check that the TC bolts have not jammed up agaisnt anything in the bell housing. If it is still solid and all looks ok remove all the TC bolts so you can rotate th TC by hand ..this eliminates any drive train faults affecting turnover. There are a lot of things to check before humping the box back out. :thumbs:
Also while in the area check that the starter hasnt jamed it self up .
Keeps us posted
Jurgen-Jm-Imports
09-08-05, 18:33
have u took plugs out to see if it sparks, try this may be a long shot but beats removing the box
have u took plugs out to see if it sparks, try this may be a long shot but beats removing the box
More basic than that . :)
The starter motor clicks but the engine does not turn over at all.
Jake, I know exactly whats happened. The TC must be 'located' correctly into the gearbox shaft.from your description, it wasn't. The correct proceedure is to slide the tc onto the shaft in the gearbox and turn it until you feel it clunk into position (that is where the cutout on the tc shaft engages with the box) Then you need to offer the box and tc as a unit to the engine.
Jake, hate to say it, but I think you may well have shagged your TC and/or gearbox shaft by tightening those bolts without correct engagement.
Suggest you remove it again and check the condition of the TC shaft cut out section. They are brittle and known to break easily.
Good luck dude.
:yeahthat: I was going to lead on to that, But was trying to break it to him gently ,Don't want him jumping of that cliff... :nyah:
Spot on though and far better at writting than I could ever :thumbs:
Jake, i found a t/c and auto box lying around today. If you need it, let me know dude. Hopefully yours is ok!
Whitesupraboy2
09-08-05, 20:34
someone get there arse over to Jake's someone could be about to get hurt and i feel sorry for that unfortunate person who is walking past his house lol
I'd blame the father-in-law. sure he would have known about this......
Still worth just removing the TC bolts to free up the TC plate and that will be the nail or the feather of it all :cool:
jake
ive done this b4 on a car,sounds like the torque converter wasnt all the way on properly,if its this u need to pull the gearbox out n get the converter on a bit more,the feet on the conveter that sit on the drive plate must be flush with the face of the bellhousing.
i did the same when the belll housing wouldnt meet the block
and it locked solid just winding it in on the bolts,
hope this helps
Sorry for the lack of replies guys. The Mrs made me go out to a barbeque.
Jake, I know exactly whats happened. The TC must be 'located' correctly into the gearbox shaft. Oh shit.
from your description, it wasn't.
correct.
The correct proceedure is to slide the tc onto the shaft in the gearbox and turn it until you feel it clunk into position (that is where the cutout on the tc shaft engages with the box) Then you need to offer the box and tc as a unit to the engine. but if I do it like that how do I align the bolt holes of the TC with the holes in the (thing that looks like a) flywheel? (What's it called anyway, that thing like a flywheel, but very thin, looks like it's only there for the starter motor?)
Jake, hate to say it, but I think you may well have shagged your TC and/or gearbox shaft by tightening those bolts without correct engagement. Oh shit. Yeah well I'm bound to have shagged it, the way Supra stuff has been going for me lately :D
Suggest you remove it again and check the condition of the TC shaft cut out section. They are brittle and known to break easily.
Good luck dude.Cheers Charlie. I'll get cracking on it in the morning.
Jake, i found a t/c and auto box lying around today. If you need it, let me know dude. Hopefully yours is ok! Thanks Jez but it's a Tiptronic box not your vanilla auto tranny :(
Cheers anyway mate
Still worth just removing the TC bolts to free up the TC plate and that will be the nail or the feather of it all :cool:I'm not sure what this means Mig. Please explain it to my dumb arse before I norse something else up! :p
Jake, print out pages 26, 27 and 46 this document (http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/resources/SUPRA_MKIV/TRANSMISSION_REMOVAL_AND_IN.PDF) if you already haven't got the info
Hope it helps :thumbs:
Jake, print out this document (http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/resources/SUPRA_MKIV/TRANSMISSION_REMOVAL_AND_IN.PDF) if you already haven't got it
Hope it helps :thumbs:Is it a document saying "JAKE IS A RETARD, DON'T LET HIM NEAR YOUR CAR"?
....oooops, actually this one (http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/resources/SUPRA_MKIV/Automatic_Transmission_Removal.pdf) is much more relevant :D
....oooops, actually this one (http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/resources/SUPRA_MKIV/Automatic_Transmission_Removal.pdf) is much more relevant :DThanks John but it doesn't really tell me anything about how to correctly fit a Torque Converter. I already know how to remove a gearbox.
Cheers anyway like.
I'm almost afraid to write this as everyone's reply's are really technical!! :conf:
but I had a similar sounding problem with my car not so long back. I would turn the key and the starter motor would click once and then do nothing at all. I replaced the starter and all was fine again.
Just thought it could be something you might wanna try before taking everything apart again!
Sorry for the lack of replies guys. The Mrs made me go out to a barbeque.
Oh shit.
correct.
but if I do it like that how do I align the bolt holes of the TC with the holes in the (thing that looks like a) flywheel? (What's it called anyway, that thing like a flywheel, but very thin, looks like it's only there for the starter motor?)
Oh shit. Yeah well I'm bound to have shagged it, the way Supra stuff has been going for me lately :D
Cheers Charlie. I'll get cracking on it in the morning.
Ok, when the TC/box is together, offer it up to the bellhousing, (it should close together without any force) fit a couple of bellhousing bolts and nip up. Then rotate the crankshaft via the front pulley bolt until the first TC bolt holes line up (viewed through the inspection hatch. Apply some loctite to the TC bolt and nip up. Rotate again until you see the next hole and repeat. When all the TC bolts are in, Torque to spec. Job done!
That's the closest I can find right now:
http://www.max-boost.co.uk/stuff/transmission.gif
Not having done it myself, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the manual though, Charlie would know better :)
Ok, when the TC/box is together, offer it up to the bellhousing, (it should close together without any force) fit a couple of bellhousing bolts and nip up. Then rotate the crankshaft via the front pulley bolt until the first TC bolt holes line up (viewed through the inspection hatch. Apply some loctite to the TC bolt and nip up. Rotate again until you see the next hole and repeat. When all the TC bolts are in, Torque to spec. Job done! Eh? :confused: There's no way I'm going to be able to get at the TC bolts through that little hole with the engine in the car, is there? There's a wacking great big cross member in the way. It took me like 5 mins to put the rubber inspection cover back on with the engine in situ!
Am I missing something here Charlie? Thanks for your patience :D
I'm almost afraid to write this as everyone's reply's are really technical!! :conf:
but I had a similar sounding problem with my car not so long back. I would turn the key and the starter motor would click once and then do nothing at all. I replaced the starter and all was fine again.
Just thought it could be something you might wanna try before taking everything apart again!
I think the key thing with Jakes problem is that he can't turn it by hand either. (I'm guess you can if everything is lined up ok?)
Incidently, a whack with a hammer usually frees up sticky starter motors if they're on their way out like yours was. (Works on the kitcar)
I'm not sure what this means Mig. Please explain it to my dumb arse before I norse something else up! :p
OK the Torque converter (TC) bolts up to the torque plate (TP) which is the small flywheel plate thingy you mention. If you undo these bolts that hold the TC to TP the engine will be disconected from the TC and you will be able, IF all is OK to turn the engine over by hand again, as efectively the TC is no longer holding it back if jamed, you will also be able to move the TC when its undone which will also give you an indicator if its that is jammed also( that is if its not pinned to the TP). IF the engine does not turn over by hand after this then you have just saved you hands from removing the box again and it leads to another problem . You will hate yourself if you pull the box and the engine is still jamed, Unlikely from the description but i would remove 6 bolts and see rather than the whole box .
As this is 1/2 way to removeing the box anyway its a good indicator...as if it turns out to be the motor and something real simple then all you have to do is bang 6 bolts back in. The guys above have hit the nail on the head with the diagnosis ..but its always best to do these little reversal tests as it may just be some real real stupid
Theres a full section of TSM manuals on http://vortex-power.co.uk/forum
if that helps
Yo, Mig, I tried to sign up to his forum but it don't like me
Me is oogla or wot?
What's oogla then ???? :rtfm:
OK the Torque converter (TC) bolts up to the torque plate (TP) which is the small flywheel plate thingy you mention. If you undo these bolts that hold the TC to TP the engine will be disconected from the TC and you will be able, IF all is OK to turn the engine over by hand again, as efectively the TC is no longer holding it back if jamed, you will also be able to move the TC when its undone which will also give you an indicator if its that is jammed also( that is if its not pinned to the TP). IF the engine does not turn over by hand after this then you have just saved you hands from removing the box again and it leads to another problem . You will hate yourself if you pull the box and the engine is still jamed, Unlikely from the description but i would remove 6 bolts and see rather than the whole box .
As this is 1/2 way to removeing the box anyway its a good indicator...as if it turns out to be the motor and something real simple then all you have to do is bang 6 bolts back in. The guys above have hit the nail on the head with the diagnosis ..but its always best to do these little reversal tests as it may just be some real real stupid
Theres a full section of TSM manuals on http://vortex-power.co.uk/forum
if that helps OK, cheers Pedro.
So should I be able to easily get at the TC bolts through that little window with the engine in situ? From what I recall it sounds nigh on impossible.
sorry for the hijake Jack, eeeerm
I've had quite some wine, I'm off now
Yup abosolutely be able to get to them bolts through there ..you can also get to them if you take the starter out and go in there also to do 2 at a time ;)
*Hijack mode on*
PS. JohnA Theres no reason why you cant get on there ..should be register and go. * Hijack mode off*
Yeah? It didn't look possible earlier but I'll give it my best shot in the morning. Thanks mate.
Yeah? It didn't look possible earlier but I'll give it my best shot in the morning. Thanks mate.
You will be fine ...if I can do it you can do it to ..jingle jingle..now where did i hear that from ? :rolleyes:
Chris Wilson
09-08-05, 22:55
The TC oil pump drive lugs (the cutaway section on the neck) need to engage with drives on the gearbox oil pump. It sounds as if you have forced the TC into the oil pump, and almost certainly done damage to the TC, the oil pump or worse. Reove the short bolts that bolt the flex plate to the TC (flexplate = flywheel). It should then be possible to push the TC rearwards using finger pressure to creat about a 1 cm gap between TC and flexplate. The TC should spin usng finger pressure and be able to be aligned or misaligned at will the the flex plate bolt holes. If the TC won't move back you have mashed it into the pump, and you need to remove the gearbox and TC and strip the pump out to examine it.
I so wish I learnt english at school ..once again same thing better worded...
:thumbs: Mr wilson
OK now I'm really confused. I've just been under the car to have a look and there no way on earth anyone could possibly undo the TC bolts with the engine and gearbox in place. Maybe you could get at one bolt at a time though the starter motor appeture but even then it would be a difficult task.
There's only a 10mm gap between the back of the engine's sump the front of the rearmost front crossmember. And there's only about a 20mm gap between the rear of that cross member and the front of the gearbox bellhousing. I can't imagine any way that you could even get a 17mm socket and ratchet in there let alone see what the hell you are doing.
Even if I remove the the gearbox I can't see how I'm going to get the TC off without pulling the engine again.
What am I missing here? Several folks have said it's possible but I just can't see how it can be done.
Jake, I swear on my life this is true....... YOU CAN DO IT ! It is a little tight, but with a short socket or drop ring you can get to the little critters through that hatch.
(unless you have put the engine in back to front in which case you may have to remove the rad to get access)
right then here goes ...the bottom inspection plate removed and you use a 17mm ring spanner and go one at a time ...you can also do it through the starter hole with a socket ....Trust me you do not have to remove the box or pull the lump to disconect the TC ..in fact you should actualy undo the TC and remove the box after ...and reversal for instaling ...this eliminates any possiblilities of getting the TC missalighed. Either I have been doing it wrong for the past 6 years or yours is a one off special ;) The bolts that hold the TC are not majorly long hence they will come out no probs. I wish i could find pictures to make it easy for you.
Well I can't see how it's possible but I'll have a damn good go at it tomorrow if you guys reckon it can be done.
Thanks everyone. I'll let you know how I get on.
Best of luck with it dude, altho I can't help you with it.... hope it is an easy fix...
the bottom inspection plate removed and you use a 17mm ring spanner and go one at a time ... When you say 'Inspection Plate' we are talking about that rubber plug thing at the bottom, right?
I'm going to go and have another look at it. God know's what the neighbours think!
EDIT : Ignore this post, I didn't see Mig's latest posts
Part deux
All on http://vortex-power.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=118 to save me C&P im wearing my mouse out here LOL
Part deux
All on http://vortex-power.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=118 to save me C&P im wearing my mouse out here LOL Looks easy there. The gap I've actually got to work with is this :
not left it in Drive have you? :rolleyes:
Yup thats right ..and you can also come in with some extension bars from the front of the Cross. Easy life ;) Honestly it is the norm ....and its way easier to come in from the stater hole also. Relax as per B'have and Cwilson and me tou can do it ...stick that bing hand of yours in the fridge ..if not come and pick me up and ill do it for ya for nowt
not left it in Drive have you? :rolleyes: ON the bloody drive. Looks like it'll be staying there for the foreseeable future too!
Edited my last post Jake have a read.
:D
Cheers Pepé. I might take you up on that if I get really stuck.
:respekt:
Jake
It seems you might just have one big problem...IF you cant turn the engine over by the crankshft bolt on the front.
Then you wont be able to undo ALL the TC bolts, 6 offf them.
So IF that is the case then you will have to unbolt the gearbox from the engine and pull it off.
Then you will be able to spin the TC round and get to all the bolts.
When fitting the TC back onto the Box shaft,offer up the TC to the gearbox, and slide it on, it will slide on and stop, now you think it will not go any further, but it WILL...grab hold of the TC and spin it round with a little pushing motion, and keep doing this till the TC locates onto the shft properly.
It might take a few mins for it to pop onto the shaft correctly, it will only drop in about another 1/4", BUT it will locate,all your doing is locating the shaft into the TC pump drive.
Oh and you need to put the box AND the TC onto the car together, and try and keep the engine tilted back slighly, so when you are offering up the box, the TC dont slip forward...then it's back to square one.
And you can get to the bolts through the blanking plate, we did ours last weekend, it's a little fiddly, or use the starter hole to undo them.
Andy
PS
tip get 2 small trolly jacks and put the box onto them and offer the box up at a slight angle, be sure the trolly jacks are inline with the box and it should be a lot easier for you to get the box back in.
PPS
make sure you fill the TC with fluid before putting it onto the box.
Chris Wilson
10-08-05, 09:58
Just re reading all this saga I have a horrible feeling you are saying that you left the TC bolted to the flex plate when you removed the auto box? That is fatal. There's no way you will get the neck of the converter to enter the oil pum snout on the gearbox when you try and stab the box into place, without damaging the oil seal and / or the pump itself.
Try this. Slacken ALL the gearbox bellhoung bolts and remove the starter. Pry the box back a good 15 mm, which is possible with most bolts still in situ. You should then be able to turn the crank, remove the TC from the flex plate, and take the box out to assess what damage has been done. It really is NOT a job to do on the drive.... It will be worth paying a pro to sort his, I can see you getting in a mess with assessing the damage to the box and TC.
I can see you getting in a mess.
Getting in a mess!? Too late for that methinks :(
UPDATE:
Blimey that was a hard slog. Working under a car that is only just off the ground is not easy. I managed to get the TC bolts undone after dropping the gearbox back a few millimeters as Chris Wilson suggested but I still couldn't get the TC to rotate, which meant I was unable to locate it into the correct position on the gearbox shaft. So, gearbox off (easier said than done in my situation). After removing the TC I could see two slight impressions on it where it had been forced in the wrong position. Nothing else looked damaged. Certainly nothing was chewed up as expected.
So, refitted the TC to the gearbox, following Andy's (Bedlam) instructions and tried to refit the gearbox to the engine. I struggled with this for about an hour. Lifting that much weight and trying to align it properly is tough. Eventually the guy from Samaritans came round and helped me do it. (not really, I rang a mate) Even with two of us it was a struggle but we got there in the end.
Unfortunately bad light stopped play but all the hard stuff is done now. Just got to reconnect the prop shaft, starter motor, exhaust, gearbox oil cooler pipes, etc etc and we should be ready to start her up.
God I hope it's OK. I don't think I could face doing this again.
Thanks ever so much for all your help guys. I would've been completely screwed without your knowledge and advice.
:respekt:
Home run and top stuff...be back on the road soon :thumbs:
Whitelightning
10-08-05, 22:45
Buy a BMW and allow our blood pressures to drop back to normal for feks sake ;)
Gaz Walker
10-08-05, 23:26
Eventually the guy from Samaritans came round and helped me do it.
:D :clap:
Excellent mate, glad its (nearly) sorted.
Gaz.
Jake
Glad you eventually got it back on :thumbs: ..do you now see what everyone was talking about with the TC fitting on that little bit extra :(..hope it works out ok for you, the box dont look that much BUT it is a weight to get in from the ground .
Andy
PS
"Edit"
Jake i just bet you would have killed for one of these things today ...
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110489&r=2047&g=107
Yeah it all makes sense now Andy. I just assumed it went together in a similar manner to a manual car, clutch onto engine then gearbox onto that. Who knew?
BTW, There's a typo in you Sig mate. '111MHP'?
Jake
Yes it's not something that a lot would know about with autoboxes..BUT everyone got to learn and you will NEVER be caught out with that again ;).
Andy
Oh the sig yes cant even be arsed to change it :).
You lazy bugger! Here you go : http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/profile.php?do=editsignature
Ignore him Jake, he eats haggissesesses :eek:
Ian
You nasty person :)..nothing wrong with a haggis if ya can catch one ;).
Andy
Oh you may have E-mail coming your way shortly Ian :).
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.