View Full Version : I've blown my car up
My 98 VVTi Tiptronic RZS has been misfiring and spluttering at the point in the revs where the second turbo comes online. It started doing this yesterday immediately after I filled the car up with Super Unleaded (97) at one of those small chain petrol stations (I forget what it's called, one of those ones like Q8 or Elf, you know the type) I don't usually buy petrol from those kind of places but I was desperately low on fuel.
Anyway, tonight on the motorway I put my foot down and it spluttered at 4000rpm again but I (stupidly) thought to myself "I wonder if it clears above 4k" so I pushed it a bit harder and suddenly there was a massive cloud of smoke behind me. I eased off the gas but there was still a fair bit of smoke coming out behind. I reapplied the gas and the amount of smoke was incredible! The engine was running really rough now.
I'm suprised there wasn't a pile up on the motorway. The smoke made all 6 lanes (both carriageways) look worse than the thickest fog you have ever seen.
Within 2 mins an unmarked police car was on the scene. He thought the car was actually on fire!
So, now the Technical question :
What have I blown up, the engine or the turbos, or both? I presume it's the engine at least because over the cam covers there was some oil that had been blown out of the filler cap.
The car still starts and ticks over but it's very lumpy and rough sounding, like it's only running on 4 cylinders. It also makes an amazing amount of white smoke even at tickover (it might be light grey smoke if that makes any difference)
I'm guessing I've holed/melted a piston or two and that the debis has probably killed my turbos as well. Happy days!
So guys, how should I procede from here? What would you do?
Thanks
SUPRALOOPY
23-06-05, 23:02
:omg: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :shrug:
terribleturner
23-06-05, 23:07
Can't give any advise Jake but just thought i'd say sorry to hear the news. Hope it doesn't damage the wallet too much.
Yowie :( That's bad news.
White smoke = coolant, blue smoke = oil.
If you are 'lucky' you have blown the head gasket in some fashion that's opening up both oil and coolant galleries. That would explain the oil out of the filler cap (piston pressurising the oil in the cylinder head) and the white smoke (burning coolant in-cylinder). The smoke may be tinted grey by some oil getting into the cylinder as well. It would also explain the rough running as you'd have no compression around the cylinder(s) that the gasket has failed around.
If you are unlucky, you've popped a piston or two, that would explain rough running (no compression) but I'd expect a more mechanical noise rather than just an uneven idle. But I don't think that would explain the filler cap venting oil or the white smoke - you'd see blue smoke instead as oil got straight into the cylinder and exited the hot exhaust - a blown piston can't affect coolant flow.
I haven't got enough experience of this to say anything better than that, the next step is to get the spark plugs out and see what state they are in. It's going to be a cylinder head off job eventually though, fingers crossed it's a BHG. That would also mean your turbos should be intact too.
-Ian
Chris Wilson
23-06-05, 23:15
Sounds like a turbo has failed to me. Being a child of the urbo race car era a huge cloud of smoke is very indictive of turbo blow ups.
Would that explain the rough running at idle though...? Can't see how it would but I'm ready to learn ;)
-Ian
again can't help tech wise but sorry to hear that mate :cry: :hug: correct me if i'm wrong but haven't you had a few issues with the vvti one already (not all techinal issues though)?
Thanks for the sympathy guys.
Chis, Frankly I'll be over the moon if it turns out to be a BHG but something tells me it's going to be rather more expensive than that.
I wonder if the rough running after putting the possibly dodgy petrol in was just a coincidence, what do you chaps reckon?
Suppose it was dodgy petrol that caused this blow up. It's not going to be a BHG then, is it? It's the petrol issue that is making me think 'holed piston', does that make sense?
correct me if i'm wrong but haven't you had a few issues with the vvti one already (not all techinal issues though)? No mate, not than I can think of.
I've had a long running problem with the power steering on the '93 RZ but the VVTi has been great up till now.
that must be what i was thinkin of mate! if it is a petrol issue, where do you think you might stand with the company that supplied it? the white VVTi is pretty standard isnt it?
Thanks for the sympathy guys.
Chis, Frankly I'll be over the moon if it turns out to be a BHG but something tells me it's going to be rather more expensive than that.
I wonder if the rough running after putting the possibly dodgy petrol in was just a coincidence, what do you chaps reckon?
Suppose it was dodgy petrol that caused this blow up. It's not going to be a BHG then, is it? It's the petrol issue that is making me think 'holed piston', does that make sense?
Dunno mate. I know exactly what you are going through, and I know you are thinking over and over all the possible scenarios. I could say, for example, that severe detonation from gammy fuel cause a BHG but you'd have collateral damage from the det as well - piston erosion, bore damage, spark plug damage, maybe a valve... Who knows how much if any of these? I'm not going to reassure you on the BHG front, tbh it's best-case-scenario now, although a blown turbo would be second best I'm not convinced that explains the dodgy tickover. A mangled piston is worst-case, that's £££s, as the cylinder bore will be arseholed as well :( Yank your plugs and see if they still have electrodes on them. You can also shine a light down the bores, see if anything is obvious (although not an exhaustive test by any stretch, if you can see loose metal in there it's bad news).
Dunno what else to say mate - investigative surgery is required, and that means head off, which also means turbos off as well. Shit job, and for a shit reason :(
-Ian
crikey mate. You're staying awfully cool headed considering. Keep us all posted on your progress..
Right the VVTi is a clever bit of gear ...if it was det /leanness/shit fuel the car would have shut it self down on a run( like trac control shutting the throttle) which leads me to think that you're main running gear is OK . I'm with C.Wilson and Chiz on this one and suspect turbos or HG . . I would honestly start with looking at the plugs . IF it does turn out to be a piston or valve even ,a quick comp test will show you this, then I would look to what has caused this IE vac leak ect to make the girl run lean . like I say VVTi's in stock trim are pretty dumb proof..and tend to shut the throttle on any bad behaviour , Is she stock ?....I would start with plugs ..then check the comp ...then do a leak down test on the coolant system ..before coming to any harsh decisions and take it from there.
Thanks Ian, useful info there. I was thinking about removing the head myself but I was forgetting that I had the turbos-off issue to deal with as well.I don't fancy it, to be honest.
Sounds like a turbo has failed to me. Being a child of the urbo race car era a huge cloud of smoke is very indictive of turbo blow ups. The smoke was very white though, Chris. Also the engine was runing very roughly before the blow-up. Please correct me but neither of those things are indicative of turbo failure, are they?
crikey mate. You're staying awfully cool headed considering. Ah well, nobody died - it's only money. :D
(I just wish I had some)
Feckin crap news, feel for you chap. I'd be puking by now from stress I reckon. Keep your chin up and try and view it as a chance to upgrade whatever went... hmmmm that wonderfull thing called money though eh :cry:
Ah well, nobody died - it's only money. :D
(I just wish I had some)
at least you have two TT Supras :rolleyes: ;)
is the RZ runnin without any issues mate? if so, as carl said, at least you've got a spare :D
Thanks for that Mig.
Is she stock ?....I would start with plugs ..then check the comp ...then do a leak down test on the coolant system ..before coming to any harsh decisions and take it from there. She's pretty much stock but has a front decat and is runing a GReddy E01 boost controller at 1.2 bar.
In case anyone is thinking the boost controller might have caused sky high EGTs I should point out that the misfire/roughness only started yesterday and was at 4000rpm even on a part throttle (ie Low boost level)
geoffvalenti
24-06-05, 00:53
Sorry to hear this Jake. I thought that all VVTis had a rough period at 3-4000 rpm, mine certainly does, although if you change down, and boot it, it flies :)
If its a piston, you should be able to hear it by listening to the compressions as you turn it over on the starter. Pull the EFI fuses and give it a whirl. You should hear 6 even compressions , something like rer rer rer rer rer rer, rer rer rer rer rer rer, etc.
If its rer rer ree rer rer ree or the like, you've got low compression (on 2 cyls in the example) :D If the 2 ree's are together, chances are its a BHG between 2 cylinders, if they're spaced apart it may be pistons, or valves.
Hope it's not too bad for you ;)
PS sorry about the compression sounds, I didn't know how else to explain them in text :D
Sorry to hear this Jake. I thought that all VVTis had a rough period at 3-4000 rpm, mine certainly does, although if you change down, and boot it, it flies :)
If its a piston, you should be able to hear it by listening to the compressions as you turn it over on the starter. Pull the EFI fuses and give it a whirl. You should hear 6 even compressions , something like rer rer rer rer rer rer, rer rer rer rer rer rer, etc.
If its rer rer ree rer rer ree or the like, you've got low compression (on 2 cyls in the example) :D If the 2 ree's are together, chances are its a BHG between 2 cylinders, if they're spaced apart it may be pistons, or valves.
Hope it's not too bad for you ;)
PS sorry about the compression sounds, I didn't know how else to explain them in text :D
One way of doing it I suppose ...just borrow a comp tester far far easier and can get you down to the actual cylinders .
"rer rer ree" :D
Thanks mate, that made me laugh as well. I'll give that a try tomorrow.
Cheers
BTW, mine has never had a rough period from 3 to 4k rpm. It pulls great in that range. Or rather it used to.
I feel your pain - I am currently Supraless as my single turbo has decided to go kaputt :cry:
geoffvalenti
24-06-05, 02:07
"rer rer ree" :D
BTW, mine has never had a rough period from 3 to 4k rpm. It pulls great in that range. Or rather it used to.
Strange.
Mine pulls 'through' that range fine, ie from rest with WOT
Sit on the motorway at about 3000 rpm and gently give it a bit of throttle, and it really feels like a flat spot. Give it a bit more and it changes down, pulls like a train, changes up into the next gear and pulls through the 3-4000 rpm range really strong.
I just put it down to the turbo change over point, where no turbos were working on light throttle, and when you gave it a bit more throttle, it wasn't boosting enough on the first turbo to pre spool the second one.
They're just too complicated for us lesser mortals, Give me a V8 anytime :D
geoffvalenti
24-06-05, 02:10
One way of doing it I suppose ...just borrow a comp tester far far easier and can get you down to the actual cylinders .
Yeah, you're right Mig. Its just a quick and dirty test to see if its worth taking the plugs out to test the compressions. If they all sound even, your efforts "could" be spent better elsewhere. Of course, unless you've managed to fcuk all 6 pistons :D
Jake you've popped a piston or maybe two mate, for sure !!
it happened to me many times before ... and I dought it's because of the fuel you added ... it's some thing to do with boost ... the misfiring and spluttering you mensioned is a sign of over boosting .... and when you pushed it a bit harder you detonate it. :bang:
Check your boost controller vacuum hosses to find the cause !!
I can look for a used engine for you from Dubai if you want ... I dont know about duty in UK but here they are cheap it'll cost you arround 1500 Pounds.
Good luck mate
Ali
Been there, got the T-shirt.
Funilly enough, sometimes you might find out that there was nothing wrong --- yes, miracles do happen and the batman-style smoke clouds could be from gulps of oil that the breather spat in the intake tract (are you feeling lucky Jake?)
Speculating without first doing a compression test is a bit premature though. Even then, oil remaining in the cylinders could give funny results, so you might want to do a leakdown to get a better idea --- the supra TT head being such a biatch to take off.
fisherjohn
24-06-05, 08:08
Feel for you mate,
After 2 rebuilds i have been there.
Mine blew 4 spark plug electrodes the first time and was still running
although not sweetly, but not badly either, also with the turbine from number 1 turbo completely missing and number 4 piston with the side out, it still drove 15 miles home though - unbelievable.
Get the plugs out and if any missing electrodes then worry, they have gone thru engine valves etc.
Comp test / leak test cylinders, if indicative of leaking, can be piston, rings, gasket, warped head, even block, i had all on mine, the block is virtually unheard of but anyone with an engine blow should get both head and block checked if they stripping down.
Hope for you it is nothing as sinister as all the aforementioned but just throwing a few things yr way if it progresses with bad news, mine got built the first time and then found with new 1.6 mm hks gasket it was leaking due to block warped, however mine could have been like this from japan we think.
Think Chris Wilson has the right diagnosis actually - unfortunately.
Wasn't there someone a while back who filled up with what turned out to be 50% water, which severely damaged the engine?
Jake, Mig has my comp tester or I'd pop down tomorrow and do it for you. When the car went flat did the exhuast note quieten? Maybe worth getting one locally for piece of mind. The VVTi does seem to offer more protection in our experience but nothing is fool proof.
Jeff on yours, are you sure the FBW is shutting the throttle at the turbo transition point?
Mate :( Sorry to hear this.
Gutted - sorry to hear about this Jake.
My bird said she saw a white Supra just before the Fareham turn off last night around 9pm, said the bonnet was up but the police car was a normal one (not unmarked). If it was you, she said you didn't look happy!
She said there was no smoke, so I guess it was long after you pulled over. I was down there that way myself a little before that. Suprised I wasn't the one on the side of the road with the speed I was going against that Skyline!
Hope it turns out reasonably cheap mate.
Not good to hear chap......
Let me know if there are any bits you need, I may have some in the shed which could be useful which came off my VVTi...
Gav
Whitesupraboy2
24-06-05, 08:53
mate sorry to hear this. hopefully not too exspensive but like you said sometimes you just know it was big failure!!! :(
Dragonball
24-06-05, 09:10
Bastard for you - sorry to hear that! Hopefully 'just' a turbo - feel the pain even on that one
If I can help with anything please let me know!
It's horrible for you mate. Hope it turns out to be ok. Look on the bright side, you can think about upgrading bits on her whilst she's got her guts out.
Ouch,
Hope the problem, whatever it is, turns out to be is repairable without putting you in financial woe.
:complain:
oooh sorry to hear Jake.
I had a turbo blow on my old Saab 900, completely obliterated the country lane for miles; thing is it was on £100 to replace; hope you get lucky.
50
My bird said she saw a white Supra just before the Fareham turn off last night around 9pm, said the bonnet was up but the police car was a normal one (not unmarked).
I cut the full story down as it would have made a massive first post to the thread and nobody would have read it.
Yeah that was me. The car broke down about 8.30pm the unmarked car called a regular marked X5 to escort me off the motorway but she was making too much smoke to do that and it might have done even more damage to the engine. After the cops had breath tested me (passed for alcohol, failed for halitosis) they called Green Flag and ordered me a recovery truck.
she said you didn't look happy! No shit! :D
Hope it turns out reasonably cheap mate. It won't. Thanks though.
it's some thing to do with boost ... the misfiring and spluttering you mensioned is a sign of over boosting .... and when you pushed it a bit harder you detonate it Hi Ali, I don't think it was over boosting, the Peak Hold on my boost controller is showing 1.18 bar. Also the boost controller makes a warning noise if it goes above 1.2 bar.
Jake, Mig has my comp tester or I'd pop down tomorrow and do it for you.
When the car went flat did the exhuast note quieten?
Maybe worth getting one locally for piece of mind.
Thanks Terry, I think I'll invest in a comp tester, another few quid isn't going to make any difference to the budget of my 'new project'
I didn't notice the exhaust quieten when the engine was running rough, it seemed like it was popping/backfiring slightly. I backed off as soon as that happened (apart from when I didn't and she blew up)
Think Chris Wilson has the right diagnosis actually - unfortunately. At this point I'm hoping it's either turbo failure or the head gasket. I really don't fancy a full bottom and top end failure, especially if it's taken the turbos with it.
Dude, thought I would offer my sincerest condolences. Cars are shit when they break :complain:
Still, how much are those Carillo rods, big bore kit and fcuking huge single turbo? :D :woot:
At least like any dedicated Supra owner you can use your spare! ;)
Forgot to say in my last post...
Does anyone know if there's a regulatory body for petrol stations?
Maybe you could get the fuel tested down there, might be worth a shot if there's a slight niggle that it might have been the fuel - just to put your mind at rest.
Keep a sample of the petrol as well, and in fact, drain the tank as much as you can & fill it with fresh fuel before firing it up again after repairs...
-Ian
What an arse Jake :( Gutted for you, hope its not too major and you get it sorted quickly.
Not a thread I read often over here, quite common on the Minicab board though!
Jeez, what a nightmare. Gutted for you Jake.
Hope you get it sorted to a successful conclusion soon, sad thing is, whatever it is costs money :(
...and for anyone thinking that a KnockLink would have saved him (IF it was because of dodgy fuel quality), my last blowup was right after I had filled it at Tesco (cheapskate, tried to use the 5p/lt voucher) and it went pop at only 1 bar without the KnockLink blinking an eye.
It was well adjusted too.
Booga.
I had a turbo blow on my VVTI and it happened just like yours Jake. Hope thats all your is too.
peter richards
24-06-05, 12:36
sorry to hear about your troubles jake mate ,hope you get it sorted , and it doesnt cost a fortune :cry: :thumbdown
:bang: What a nightmare, hope it's not as bad as it sounds and you get it sorted mate.
And CJ, you've blown up yours as well! Shit.
Hope it is nothing too bad mate.
I'm not particularly technically minded in that way so not offering any suggestions
Just passing on my condolences!
Im sorry to hear this Jake.
Taking the turbos off yourself isnt that bad a job. Just take lots of pics as you go and label everything.
LOTS of pics, lol
There are so many hoses, nooks and crannies, that putting them back (correctly!) would be like a jigsaw puzzle
dangerous brain
24-06-05, 16:46
To be fair if it is the turbos there are so many of them lying around spare now that shouldn't really cost you a huge amount to sort. A head gasket on the other hand would cost you a significant wedge. Like has been said though don't jump directly to any conclusions. i had smoke screens coming out the back of mine a while back and it turned out to be nothing more than an overfilled transmission. I'm not sure how many things can cause the oil cap to blow oil every where sometimes funny things can happen inside an engine. Backfires and misfires are weird affairs with airflows all fecked up, ignitions happening when they shouldn't in places they shouldn't.
First things first before you do anything else pop the plugs out and have a look at them. If theres bits missing off any of them then you can begin to get worried. If they are intact and look OK for correct fuelling then get yourself a compression tester from halfrauds (they aren't mega expensive I think they are about £40). Do a compression test and see where you stand. If all is well there then the turbo's need testing, how you do that on the car I don't really know. If all is not well then if you can get access to a boroscope or a cylinder inspection tool (most garages will have the latter) pop that down the affected spark plug hole and see if you can see any damage inside (should be able to see if there is a gaping hole in a piston or a bent valve etc).
Remember though before you go spending hods of cash on a serious rebuild that you can pick up TT engines with all the stuff bolted on them for around £1600 and may be a better option than rebuilding to have some inherent fault cause the same again.
still leaning towards a major turbo failure TBH.
Sorry to hear this Jake. I'm not technical enough to help any more, wish I could.
And CJ, you've blown up yours as well! Shit.
Yep - waiting for a report on what has gone wrong :cry:
Is there a virus going around, hitting supra turbos?
Maybe it's like the 'superbug' because it hits singles too, eh?
Jake - I'm so sorry to hear about your trouble. Like some others I just wanted to offer sympathy and wish you luck in getting it sorted out :grouphug:
Yep - waiting for a report on what has gone wrong :cry:
CJ - :no: Didn't you just get your tangomobile back on the road? I hope you get things sorted out quickly too. :hug:
It's at times like these I'm really glad I don't have any turbos ;)
CJ - :no: Didn't you just get your tangomobile back on the road? I hope you get things sorted out quickly too. :hug:
Yes, only been up and running about 3 weeks :cry:
It's at times like these I'm really glad I don't have any turbos ;)
I am begining to feel the same way!
I wonder if this turbo-failure streak is related to the high ambient temperatures lately, coupled with poor quality fuel and the 'performance' cone filters many people run (resulting in the turbos inhaling even hotter air)
I wonder if this turbo-failure streak is related to the high ambient temperatures lately, coupled with poor quality fuel and the 'performance' cone filters many people run (resulting in the turbos inhaling even hotter air) Standard air box on mine John. Converting it back to stock was the first 'mod' I planned when I bought the car back in Dec.
The thing about high ambient temps had crossed my mind too.
The guy I work with drives a Saab Turbo. His turbo died on Sunday and already has been replaced with a brand new genuine OE one. £900 inc fitting
Jake - I'm so sorry to hear about your trouble.
CJ -I hope you get things sorted out quickly too.
It's at times like these I'm really glad I don't have any turbos
Well, looks like me and Col have NAs too now!
Whitesupraboy2
24-06-05, 18:41
Well, looks like me and Col have NAs too now!
nothing wrong with that mate :D
dangerous brain
24-06-05, 19:21
I wonder if this turbo-failure streak is related to the high ambient temperatures lately, coupled with poor quality fuel and the 'performance' cone filters many people run (resulting in the turbos inhaling even hotter air)
MMM mine had a nasty couple of backfires the other day when running in parrallel mode with cheapo sainsburies fuel in it (an AMG merc convertible of some sort needed showing some heels). Fortunatey thats as far as it went.
Standard air box on mine John. Converting it back to stock was the first 'mod' I planned when I bought the car back in Dec. ...
If ambient temp is 30C (I've seen up to 34C here in Kent lately) then underbonnet temps can easily exceed 50C with the car moving (way over that when idling in traffic)
That is a lot, considering that the i/c has 34C air to work with. Plus a lot of the heat the i/c core sheds goes back to the engine bay for those with FMICs (not very smart)
The rule of thumb is that for every degree the intake temp goes up(or down), so does the EGT. If your EGTs are already marginal (stock turbos running high boost), this could push them over the edge.
Not to mention fuel fizzling out much quicker in these temps (lighter components booger off)
dangerous brain
24-06-05, 20:15
If ambient temp is 30C (I've seen up to 34C here in Kent lately) then underbonnet temps can easily exceed 50C with the car moving (way over that when idling in traffic)
That is a lot, considering that the i/c has 34C air to work with. Plus a lot of the heat the i/c core sheds goes back to the engine bay for those with FMICs (not very smart)
The rule of thumb is that for every degree the intake temp goes up(or down), so does the EGT. If your EGTs are already on the edge, this could push them over the edge.
Not to mention fuel fizzling out much quicker in these temps (lighter components booger off)
MMM my EGT gauge started bleeping at me as well and hit nearly 1000 when I backfired. It dropped straight back down to 400 when I lifted off and coasted. Perhaps its time to fix the water injection kit.
I wonder if this turbo-failure streak is related to the high ambient temperatures lately, coupled with poor quality fuel and the 'performance' cone filters many people run (resulting in the turbos inhaling even hotter air)
Mine bit the dust over a week ago before the heat wave struck.
In a way I'm lucky that my (ICV) nipple snapped today, so it's effectively crippled to a ceiling of 4Krpm.
When I took it yesterday out for some 'tests' to adjust the EGBV bleed levels it kept making burbling noises for a long time after I switched it off. I expected the cooling system to behave better with the fresh coolant it's got, especially it being weak (75% distilled water).
Even though I have replacement turbos in the garage, I'd be pissed off if one went pop.
Having owned my Supe for over a year now, I've toyed with the idea of BPU'ing the car, but when I read threads like this it makes me think to stay as I am.
When I was in France last weekend it was quite significantly hotter there than here, and on the way back on Sunday was driving hard for over an hour after long stretches stuck in traffic. And it didn't miss a beat.
I don't have gauges that give EGT readouts but I know it was bloody hot as I set the grass on fire when I parked up at our campsite!!!.
Makes me wonder...... extra 80bhp for 1ksih or reliability? Dunno.
Jake I'm gutted for you hope everything goes ok.
CJ I'm even more gutted as I was sooooo looking forward to a blast in your car. Hope its nothing seriously major.
After the cops had breath tested me (passed for alcohol, failed for halitosis)
lol .. :D
If ambient temp is 30C (I've seen up to 34C here in Kent lately) then underbonnet temps can easily exceed 50C with the car moving (way over that when idling in traffic)
I have the temp. probe of my boost gauge sat in the corner of the engine bay sort of in front of the driver, right up to the side, and in this kind of weather it's not uncommon for it to register 65c :eek:
lol .. :D
I have the temp. probe of my boost gauge sat in the corner of the engine bay sort of in front of the driver, right up to the side, and in this kind of weather it's not uncommon for it to register 65c :eek:
Ian C said he got 70degC in France at the weekend...his Single didn't miss a beat ;)
We get 30+ degrees for around 6 months of the year here and regularly in the high 30's in the summer, touch wood mine has been running fine for a long time now at 1.25bar. Mine was dyno'd/mapped in hotter temps though so that may have something to do with things.
Chris Wilson
24-06-05, 21:43
Nothing whatever to do with this piffling little warm spell, hell, all modern cars are tested to withstand towing a caravan through Death Valley with a full compliment of hefty passengers, too. It's not even been that hot, relatively speaking. For some reasonn it's detted, I would also very much doubt it's fuel related. What are the plugs in it? Copper ones :( ?
What are the plugs in it? Copper ones :( ? Yes copper ones. They're NGK BCPR7ES, about 3,000 miles old.
Why the :(? Do you not approve of copper cored plugs, Chris?
Nothing whatever to do with this piffling little warm spell, hell, all modern cars are tested to withstand towing a caravan through Death Valley with a full compliment of hefty passengers, too. It's not even been that hot, relatively speaking. For some reasonn it's detted, I would also very much doubt it's fuel related. What are the plugs in it? Copper ones :( ?
NGK bcpr7es from the look of things http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=41478&page=1&pp=15
Chris Wilson
24-06-05, 21:59
If people INSIST I fit these, (and they have to supply their own), I make them sign a disclaimer. Honest, I do. I just don't think they have the thermal range of an exotic metal tipped plug. I wouldn't have them in MY engine as a gift! Others will disagree.... ;)
If people INSIST I fit these, (and they have to supply their own), I make them sign a disclaimer. Honest, I do. I just don't think they have the thermal range of an exotic metal tipped plug. I wouldn't have them in MY engine as a gift! Others will disagree.... ;)
Which plugs would you use then Chris?
:shrug:
Chris Wilson
24-06-05, 22:08
I got NGK's race division to recommend something. I just buy them off them 100 at a time, I can't remember the code, it's an odd ball plug, but I have never, ever had either fouling or tip failure with them. Of course, you can melt almost any road car plug if the set ups wrong, or something is seriously amiss! But copper electrode plugs don't have the tolerance of a fine tipped exotic metal one, even though they may be listed as interchangable, and of simialr heat range.
Chris, the plugs I think are NGK PFR7B 4853. Because you fitted them to my car. :)
Chris,
NGK PFR7N (4853's) are Platinum tipped plugs.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/cars_trucks_suvs/laserplatinum.asp
As I understood it, platinums are not good in turbo charged applications? Can you expand further on the recommendation from NGK? What was your specific requirement?
Nothing whatever to do with this piffling little warm spell,
??!
Coolant temps are higher, fuel octane levels are likely to be lower, oil temps will be higher, intake/exhaust temps are higher. Aircons are likely to be working full blast, further preheating things. FMICs preheat things even further (compared to Toyota's SMIC setup)
My guess would be that this weather aggravates det-inducing conditions
hell, all modern cars are tested to withstand towing a caravan through Death Valley with a full compliment of hefty passengers, too.
Yes, *stock* cars
What are the plugs in it? Copper ones :( ?
I agree on this one.
If the manufacturer suggests an iridium plug (for example) I'd be very careful when chosing something different, especially on a modified engine. (I've seen iridium tips missing completely, too!)
As I understood it, platinums are not good in turbo charged applications?
The standard plugs on both the MKIII and MKIV turbo were platinum.
FMICs preheat things even further (compared to Toyota's SMIC setup)
John, what makes you say that?... are you refering to the air that goes thru to the radiator as opposed to the air temp going into the manifold?
Gav
John, what makes you say that?... are you refering to the air that goes thru to the radiator as opposed to the air temp going into the manifold?
Gav
yes.
The stock setup is quite smart:
1. The SMIC is exceptionally well ducted at the front. FMICs typically aren't
2. The SMIC is exceptionally well located for the rear to be in a low pressure environment (pressure difference is what makes air move through the core, not vehicle speed as most people think. Just fit a cardboard behind the core and go at 200mph. The flow through the core will be feckall ;) )
FMICs have the rear of their core in a high pressure area, almost as high as their front. Not smart.
3. The SMIC dumps the preheated air totally outside the engine bay, unlike the FMICs that dump it onto the aircon condenser and the water rad. That's a serious step back in my book.
4. The SMIC is totally shielded from the engine bay heat, so it gets no heatsoak in slow driving. FMICs are only partially shielded from that 'interheating' effect.
Not to mention question marks around the flow and efficiency of many aftermarket FMICs, especially some el-cheapos.
PS
I'm old-fashioned, don't fall for hype, bling and 'street cred' Gav. I appreciate and embrace a good idea when I see one. But the great majority of 'mods' I see around I regard as garbage, it's no secret, you should see the hate-mail I get on my website.
JohnA.....good post....it makes sense, good reason why Toyota dropped it in there. Additionally, seems like the Castrol Supra has a SMIC in the left headlight (I could be wrong though)
Question. How come FMIC adds more power?
Question. How come FMIC adds more power?
More boost adds power. FMICs give people the confidence to run more boost. Without measurements, that confidence could be misplaced sometimes though. FMICs have a lot more mass, so they act as heat-bricks, something very important when you're running the stock turbos totally out of their efficiency range (which ends kinda sharpish after 1 bar) The SMIC with the flimsy plastic tanks loses the mass battle, but not necessarily the war.
The quality of the SMIC core inside is exceptionally good, far superior to the FMICs I've seen.
And remember, you cannot compare and deadbeat flaky 13 year old SMIC with a brand new FMIC and say there's an improvement, any more than you can compare 60K old stock plugs with brand new crappy ones. You're not comparing like with like. ;)
I'm not saying that FMICs in principle are a bad move, because they're not. In case of the Supra's SMIC a FMIC will have to go a lot further to prove it's worth, that's all.
More boost adds power. FMICs give people the confidence to run more boost.
Homer - need you to confirm the accuracy of what I am about to say.
on the Miami-GT RR day, Homer put his car on the rollers and it did 380bhp.
a couple of months later, on the second Miami-GT day, his car did 412bhp.
Exactly the same setup, the only difference if I recall correctly was the addition of FMIC and new Spark plugs.
And remember, you cannot compare and deadbeat flaky 13 year old SMIC with a brand new FMIC and say there's an improvement, any more than you can compare 60K old stock plugs with brand new crappy ones. You're not comparing like with like. ;)
Good point.
..on the Miami-GT RR day, Homer put his car on the rollers and it did 380bhp.
a couple of months later, on the second Miami-GT day, his car did 412bhp..
32bhp compared to 380 are less than 10% variance.
Even if it was the same RR, with the same operator and the same throttle pattern used, the ambient temp/pressure could well be different and not compensated with the RR's software (or overcompensated, to make the punter happy, as the case may be). Bonnet open/closed, temps of the engine bay before the 'good' run took place, tyre slip, tyre pressures, fuel quality, ECU recently reset, (etc etc) they all make very measurable differences, a few percentage points each actually.
...dumping a corroded SMIC wouldn't hurt, either.
In any case, the backward steps taken during the FMIC 'upgrade' might not affect max RR readings on a short power burst, rather real-life power delivery and reliability. The overtaxing of the coolant system and raising of engine bay temps has a cumulative effect in bits getting cooked and failing later on.
32bhp compared to 380 are less than 10% variance.
Even if it was the same RR, with the same operator and the same throttle pattern used, the ambient temp/pressure could well be different and not compensated with the RR's software (or overcompensated, to make the punter happy, as the case may be). Bonnet open/closed, temps of the engine bay before the 'good' run took place, tyre slip, tyre pressures, fuel quality, ECU recently reset, (etc etc) they all make very measurable differences, a few percentage points each actually.
...dumping a corroded SMIC wouldn't hurt, either.
In any case, the backward steps taken during the FMIC 'upgrade' might not affect max RR readings on a short power burst, rather real-life power delivery and reliability. The overtaxing of the coolant system and raising of engine bay temps has a cumulative effect in bits getting cooked and failing later on.
There must be alot of Supras blowing up in America, Hong Kong and Japan then!!!
Going back to Sparkplugs ... BKR7E-VX are only £5.94 each. These are "fine wire platinum centre electrode". Is this the same as "platinum core"?
peanuts (click here) (http://www.spark-plugs.co.uk/pages/pricing/ngkpricea-bl.htm)
Homer - need you to confirm the accuracy of what I am about to say.
on the Miami-GT RR day, Homer put his car on the rollers and it did 380bhp.
a couple of months later, on the second Miami-GT day, his car did 412bhp.
Imi, you're right. 1st time I had 387bhp, 2nd time 412bhp. Only change to the car was dumping a coroded standard intercooler and fitting a Greddy 3 row. The FPR was also changed from stock to aeromotive.
After having those bits fitted the car did feel like it had much more power at the higher rpm so I'm inclined to beleive there was an increase in HP.
Edited to add - boost pressure was 1.1 bar on both days
Need4Speed
25-06-05, 23:35
Sounds like a 2nd turbo failure
Sorry to bump such an old thread, but what was the problem in the end?
The vacuum reference pipe had come off the FPR (the stock one). Apparently this causes it to run lean.
Why do you ask mate? I hope you haven't had a similar problem
just read 3 pages before i realised it was a year old thread:rolleyes:
just read 3 pages before i realised it was a year old thread:rolleyes:
:yeahthat: :rolleyes:
MrRalphMan
06-05-06, 16:13
Ah nuts, that's the second thread I've read today that started over a year ago.
What damage had been done in the end?
What damage had been done in the end?Melted piston #2, scratched bore.
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/5690/meltedpiston013wb.th.jpg (http://img324.imageshack.us/my.php?image=meltedpiston013wb.jpg)
I've had the block hot-tanked, bored out to 86.5mm and fitted a set of oversized pistons and rings.
Replaced one conrod because I scratched a small end bushing while trying to remove one of the gudgeon pins. (Thanks Mig!)
New rod and main bearings. New Toyota bolts in the rods and mains. New stock head gasket and head bolts, numerous other gaskets/seal/etc
While the head was off I had all the valves reseated and replaced all the stem seal even though the engine has only done about 36,000 miles.
The engine is all rebuilt and ready to start up now but I'm having to wait for a couple of bits I leant out to be returned.
Glad to hear it m8, hope you're back on the road asap :)
MONKEYmark
06-05-06, 17:53
hope its sorted soon for you.you had more than your share of problems.
I know this is an old thread ressurected (although I read the whole thing, quite interesting) but does anyone have a pic of the location of this vac pipe to the fpr so everyone can check the condition of theirs, not worth taking any chances with perished / loose pipes with consequences as severe as this!
Chilli,
The FPR is labelled on this (http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=13939&d=1112558977) pic. You can see the vacuum hose that goes to it. It's got a spiral black wrapping, if that helps.
Top man jake, I'll be checking mine when I get a chance, just for piece of mind. Hard to see where the ref pipe goes but I'm sure I can follow it on the car.
I'm tempted to add an aftermarket FPR and new piping just as a safety measure.
terribleturner
07-05-06, 00:08
Jake, that's a really impressive piston :faint:
The vacuum reference pipe had come off the FPR (the stock one). Apparently this causes it to run lean.
Why do you ask mate? I hope you haven't had a similar problem
Yes, what I suspect to be massive and complete turbo failure on the Soarer at 140mph, bang + loads and loads of smoke. Limped it the 2 miles home and here it sits awaiting plug inspection + compression test.
140, bany, no power, plumes of smoke. Oil used at huge rate but coolant ok, what we reckon on?
Ouch! I know the feeling mate.
Like you say, it's compression test time. Then cylinder head off if the expected piss-poor comp test results are found. If the Soarer TT is like the Supra TT then it's as easy to pull the engine and box out first rather than trying to remove the turbos and head with the lump in the car still. If you've got a damaged piston etc then the engine will have to come out anyway.
Good luck.
I can't stress enough how dangerous it can be to use the FPR and MAP reference line for anything else.
Ouch! I know the feeling mate.
Like you say, it's compression test time. Then cylinder head off if the expected piss-poor comp test results are found. If the Soarer TT is like the Supra TT then it's as easy to pull the engine and box out first rather than trying to remove the turbos and head with the lump in the car still. If you've got a damaged piston etc then the engine will have to come out anyway.
Good luck.
Cheers Jake.
I still have fingers crossed for the compression test, but if it is gone, it is a good reason for a engine build. It just could have happened at a better time!
John, they were entirely untouched in my case. It is just soarer turbos are weaker, and they have been at 1-1.1bar for nearly 30k miles. I just hope nothing has gone with them.
Chris Wilson
07-05-06, 15:37
I reckon a turbo has failed, you'll probably find an exhaust wheel has disintegrated, and HOPEFULLY no fragments have gone into the ports and chambers. With luck it all went doen the exhaust pipe. Ceramic fragments in combustion chambers = BIG BILLS.
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