View Full Version : BL 61 kit
I plan to get a BL61 turbo kit on my J-spec TT but is it possible to run these on the SAFC. will i need any other electronics to control the timing etc...
cheers
I use a safc and itc with my powerhouse racing t61. Its ok, but if i were to do it again i would go e-manage. Especially for the 3500~4000 rpm safr (stupid air fuel ratios!)
Yep
Go Emanage if you want to control things better...or something better Fcon.
Andy
So if i go with the E-manage i wouldnt need any other electronics to run it right (ie ITC). Also how hard is the e-manage to tune for someone new to it?
cheers
If I were (and might) start again with engine management, I would probably buy e-manage and a proven base map from someone using a similar setup, ie same fueling/cams/turbo. This would still need fine tuning. ITC would not be required as the E-manage can adjust timing also. MOST important thing is a good wideband afr display.
Chris Wilson
02-06-05, 09:44
In my opinion AEM, FCON Pro or other proper standalone ECU is absolute minimum when removing the sequential system. It then needs professionally mapping. Do not underestimate the time and money to get things working correctly and reliably. Never expect it to be as good as a stock map unless you throw a HUGE amount of time and money at the project.
Chris, thats fine if you have an unlimited budget! For most of us, small singles can produce good results with the signal fudgers and are simple enough to self map.
The Hornet
02-06-05, 11:08
I always thought AEM is quite hard and fiddley to setup ?.....
Chris Wilson
02-06-05, 11:20
Converting a twin sequential turbo map into a single turbo map requires more than signal fudgers or even, IMO, an e-manage. If your budget is limited I quite understand, but the engine doesn't!
Any proper standalone ecu is hard and fiddly to set up and, again, IMO, the preserve of the dedicated professional engine mapper.
Again, IMO, the Supra TT is not a suitable car to learn mapping on, it's always best to learn on an N/A car, preferably one where the engine biting the bullet won't cause you much grief.
I can sell and fit single turbo kits as easily as anyone, but unless the customer wants it doing with a standalone ECU and proper dyno time I never get involved. So I have no axe to grind with any vendor or end user of budget set ups, I am just giving advice as to how *I* see this, and stating why I don't offer a budget kit without a "proper" ecu to run it :)
Dragonball
02-06-05, 17:12
Listen to the man...he talks mucho sense...
If you cant afford to do it right - then just dont do it...too many people have learned the hard way by trying to cut corners and ended up unhappy and diillusioned
And some just cant bring themselves to admit it....!!!
I think Ian is the only one who is succesfully programmed the E-manage to run with a single (?) - and with a lot of work - and he knows how to do it! Alex - you still have problems with cold start?
The F-Con route is now about £1500/1600 plus mapping once you have your system in
I think AEM is prob the best route for singles.
Dragonball
02-06-05, 19:43
Seems to have moved up a notch certainly m8 - about £2000 to have installed and running?
My main issue with an AEM would be the lack of support in this country. For someone like me (a complete technical numpty) it would be a big concern.
I think Ian is the only one who is succesfully programmed the E-manage to run with a single (?) - and with a lot of work - and he knows how to do it! Alex - you still have problems with cold start?
My issue is NOT related to the eManage and it's NOT the cold start.
The eManage is doing a superb job within it's own limitations (ie being a piggyback)
Dragonball
02-06-05, 23:11
Oh OK - I was under the impression that after fitting your E-manage you had problems that were not there when you had stock twins on the car?
did'nt dude get some impresive power figures and more importantly times out of just an SAFC and an ITC, i think most people would agree that a stand alone is best but not everyone has 2k to blow on an pukka ecu and its mapping, lets be realistic if you want 1000 hp you HAVE to go to a standalone but at the modest power levels (450-500 hp) a T61 will give its complete overkill and SAFC, ITC's, E-manage and the like will do a job for a more modest outlay
Dragonball
02-06-05, 23:25
Converting a twin sequential turbo map into a single turbo map requires more than signal fudgers or even, IMO, an e-manage. If your budget is limited I quite understand, but the engine doesn't!
What I cant understand is that people are happy to outlay all this money for single kits and fuelling and then 'skimp' on the part that will make it all work properly!
Dude got some great figures - he also spent hour after hour on his car putting it together and back together after the bits fried / needed improving etc - he then went AEM and got more out of a smaller turbo (his words) then all his other stuff did from the larger one.
Dude is a mechanic and imagine how an average punter would have to spend on getting the engine back together again if it goes wrong!
Even an E-manage will cost you £1000+ to map - so after all this investment why not just spend that little bit extra to make it safer?
Just my 2.5 drachma...
What I cant understand is that people are happy to outlay all this money for single kits and fuelling and then 'skimp' on the part that will make it all work properly!
Dude got some great figures - he also spent hour after hour on his car putting it together and back together after the bits fried / needed improving etc - he then went AEM and got more out of a smaller turbo (his words) then all his other stuff did from the larger one.
Dude is a mechanic and imagine how an average punter would have to spend on getting the engine back together again if it goes wrong!
Even an E-manage will cost you £1000+ to map - so after all this investment why not just spend that little bit extra to make it safer?
Just my 2.5 drachma...
totally accept all that paul i have a T61 and am using a SAFC and ITC to controll it with 550's, its getting set up shortly by a reputable tuner off this board, the reason i chose this "old school" route was because i have not read much positve on this board (do a search) on ecu's and e-manages and want to keep it simple, i realise i would make more power from a well set up e-manage (is there such a thing yet ?) but how much more power, 10 horse WOW, would the meagre power gain at my state of tune warrant it, and as for "do it right or not at all" comes across a bit elitist, like the guys who buy all there bits seperate, from the states or on the cheap have no right to,we dont all have pots of money fella, but love our supes probably more than the rich kids with "loadsamoney"
:respekt: Your authority!
BTW anyone take my safc/itc in p/x for a motec?
Dragonball
03-06-05, 00:06
It's not meant to sound elitist - I had really discounted the AFC and ITC set up as my understanding is that doesn't have enough tuning points required for the transition phase (according to others on the board)
Good luck with this and hope it goes well - please let's have a look at the dyno charts after for interest -
I understand others have had fuelling issues after or were unable to take it up to full WOT or a reasonable boost
But even this will cost - what..? £1000 to get done and tuned?
So the difference between that and an F-Con for instance is not that huge when you consider what you will have paid to go single already...?
wow paul i think i made it clear pots of money aint my thing £1000 for an SAFC II and an ITC ! check out e-bay, £200 for the pair and say another £250 to set it up, sure i'll put up the dino figures and i hope someone will put up there figures who has the same spec as me but with a standalone and we can see if the extra £1500 was worth it, i'me not anti anything that gets performance the hard reallity for me is........money, so i have to "make do on the cheap" lol
Even an E-manage will cost you £1000+ to map - so after all this investment why not just spend that little bit extra to make it safer?
I'm obviously not charging enough :D
Right, my go - I like the E-Manage, it's got the gumption to be able to map a big single around the stock sequential thing. It is, however, a nightmare to sort out the *structure* of the map - the fuelling varies a suprising amount around 3000 to 4100rpm depending on rpm point, throttle position and gear/load/boost pressure. This has taken me a LOT of time and work to sort out with many iterative steps, and even now I'm still debugging small load sites, say 80% throttle in 4th at 3900rpm or 35% throttle in 6th at 3300rpm... however this structure is very portable across non-vvti supras and has proven to be a good base map a few times now ;)
Thing is, it has a tendency round this 3000-4100rpm area to run horribly lean (we are talking AFRs of around 17:1) *if* you map this range with the same numbers as the rest of the rev range. The varying boost pressures you get for the same RPM with the same throttle opening is mapped around not only by pulling less air, but also using the additional injector map to fatten it up at certain boost pressures, something you simply cannot do with an AFC. The AFC doesn't even have the resolution to do anywhere near approaching a decent airflow map, and that's only half the story. The ITC is also seriously limited, the EM can adjust ignition timing according to 16 RPM sites and 16 boost pressure sites, so no off-boost slothlike performance just because you've dialled in a blanket -10deg with an ITC, in order to cover your maximum boost...
With an AFC you have to either run parts of the map dangerously lean, or so rich it misfires. People seem to think choosing an E-Manage over an AFC is just a case of getting a weeny bit extra power out of it, well, it's not, it's a case of getting decent AFRs at any boost pressure at any point in the rev range, so you can drive the car without stumbling, misfires, or the pistons melting. I've 98% achieved that now and I know I can do the last 2% as I find them and datalog them. And all the bugs are too-rich ones rather than too-lean ones :)
Anyway, I'm happy with it because I can map it, I've taught myself from the ground up as I had no other option. I don't really care if anyone else thinks it's great or not, it's good enough for what I want, it reports bloody good AFRs so it's definitely doing the job properly, and if you know me you'll know I don't put up with crap bits of kit ;) I'll get some show-off datalog graphs this weekend hopefully :thumbs:
No comment on the AEM stuff, if you can map it it's gonna be better, but that's where you are talking a 10hp difference ;) As CW says, a road turbo car is not something he'd want to map at all and certainly not something to start on - adjusting the factory ECU means at least you are starting with something written by someone who actually knew what they were doing ;) :D
-Ian
wow paul i think i made it clear pots of money aint my thing £1000 for an SAFC II and an ITC ! check out e-bay, £200 for the pair and say another £250 to set it up, sure i'll put up the dino figures and i hope someone will put up there figures who has the same spec as me but with a standalone and we can see if the extra £1500 was worth it, i'me not anti anything that gets performance the hard reallity for me is........money, so i have to "make do on the cheap" lol
Oh, and wide open throttle is about the only thing the AFC combo can map on a single turbo ;) It's not overly affected by the transition point. Get some AFR graphs of an AFC controlling a single turbo when you are at say 30% throttle in 6th, going through say 2000 to 4500 rpm. I'd like to see them :D
-Ian
I'm obviously not charging enough :D
Right, my go - I like the E-Manage, it's got the gumption to be able to map a big single around the stock sequential thing. It is, however, a nightmare to sort out the *structure* of the map - the fuelling varies a suprising amount around 3000 to 4100rpm depending on rpm point, throttle position and gear/load/boost pressure. This has taken me a LOT of time and work to sort out with many iterative steps, and even now I'm still debugging small load sites, say 80% throttle in 4th at 3900rpm or 35% throttle in 6th at 3300rpm... however this structure is very portable across non-vvti supras and has proven to be a good base map a few times now ;)
Thing is, it has a tendency round this 3000-4100rpm area to run horribly lean (we are talking AFRs of around 17:1) *if* you map this range with the same numbers as the rest of the rev range. The varying boost pressures you get for the same RPM with the same throttle opening is mapped around not only by pulling less air, but also using the additional injector map to fatten it up at certain boost pressures, something you simply cannot do with an AFC. The AFC doesn't even have the resolution to do anywhere near approaching a decent airflow map, and that's only half the story. The ITC is also seriously limited, the EM can adjust ignition timing according to 16 RPM sites and 16 boost pressure sites, so no off-boost slothlike performance just because you've dialled in a blanket -10deg with an ITC, in order to cover your maximum boost...
With an AFC you have to either run parts of the map dangerously lean, or so rich it misfires. People seem to think choosing an E-Manage over an AFC is just a case of getting a weeny bit extra power out of it, well, it's not, it's a case of getting decent AFRs at any boost pressure at any point in the rev range, and I've 98% achieved that now and I know I can do the last 2% as I find them and datalog them.
Anyway, I'm happy with it because I can map it, I've taught myself from the ground up as I had no other option. I don't really care if anyone else thinks it's great or not, it's good enough for what I want, it reports bloody good AFRs so it's definitely doing the job properly, and if you know me you'll know I don't put up with crap bits of kit ;) I'll get some show-off datalog graphs this weekend hopefully :thumbs:
No comment on the AEM stuff, if you can map it it's gonna be better, but that's where you are talking a 10hp difference ;) As CW says, a road turbo car is not something he'd want to map at all and certainly not something to start on - adjusting the factory ECU means at least you are starting with something written by someone who actually knew what they were doing ;) :D
-Ian
:notworthy I know whose gonna be mapping my car in the future. :D
Dragonball
03-06-05, 00:32
Get outa here :) :)
S-AFC and ITC (if you can get one as no longer made!) will be £400 min and who will be setting it up for just £250 - that's very very cheap? On the dyno / road tested and all up and running properly in 2.5 / 3 hours?
I normally budget around the £600 mapping charge for a day's work for the stand alone / piggy back ecu's
Well will take your word for it - and hope it all goes well mate!
Dragonball
03-06-05, 00:38
LOL @ Ian - sorry mate that was meant to read cost of kit AND mapping included
You da man on dat ting - no doubt!
Get outa here :) :)
S-AFC and ITC (if you can get one as no longer made!) will be £400 min and who will be setting it up for just £250 - that's very very cheap? On the dyno / road tested and all up and running properly in 2.5 / 3 hours?
I normally budget around the £600 mapping charge for a day's work for the stand alone / piggy back ecu's
Well will take your word for it - and hope it all goes well mate!
AFC II was £120 off e-bay and the ITC was £100 off a member off this board do you want the reciepts, does the £600 fee for mapping include your cut paul ? as i'me sure this will inflate your price, great post Ian but that is EXACTLY why i did'nt buy an e-manage, i will just keep it safe and suffer a power loss
Oh OK - I was under the impression that after fitting your E-manage you had problems that were not there when you had stock twins on the car?
Yes I have an issue with starting in certain circumstances. But it's a weakness/existing problem that's been magnified by the uprated fuel system. Vapour lock is the prime suspect, the problem is in working out what's causing it...it could just be the fuel filter.
IT IS NOT A MAPPING ISSUE, the eManage is far superior and safer (due to being able to map out the leanness at 3-4k) to the S-AFC and ITC for the midrange stuff...my maps fcuking great :) It's always a work in progress cause I, like Ian, want seeing how good I can make the map...I'm making the most accurate base map for all VVTi's going single, my AFR's are great and getting better all the time. My low speed driveability is smooth and gentle to agressive acceleration is spot on...only problems I have are a lack of traction!
The VVTi base maps are on me ;)
Paul absolutely none of Dudes failures were down to the SAFC or ITC, FACT.
Dragonball
03-06-05, 09:49
Ah - so second hand parts....
I think you misread his post mate - it talks of dangerous leaness or mis-fires with the AFC...
I dont run a dyno or take a cut - the average min cost is £80 per hour plus VAT for mapping - hence the £600 for 6 hours plus petrol assumption etc
So who is doing it for you for £250?
great post Ian but that is EXACTLY why i did'nt buy an e-manage, i will just keep it safe and suffer a power loss
Well, do let us know how it all pans out :thumbs: Don't forget those part throttle graphs haha :)
-Ian
Paul Mac - Base maps are available for the eManage on a single...which should load on, be reletively safe and not have massive lean spots.
There are no such bae maps for the S-AFC...
The eManage is safer and faster to get up and running. It's the absolute min for a Single install imo.
Guys the SAFC get a bad press IMHO. IF you use conservatively sized injectors its not much of an issue, they are very easy to set up, and the 2 has user definable set points.
I agree its not as good as a E-Mange ( no typo) but they do work ok in the correct application.
Guys the SAFC get a bad press IMHO. IF you use conservatively sized injectors its not much of an issue, they are very easy to set up, and the 2 has user definable set points.
I agree its not as good as a E-Mange ( no typo) but they do work ok in the correct application.
Well, one ran my hybrids OK but I wouldn't want to go bigger than 550's and I wouldn't want to convert to a single with one :) Bad press bad press :stickpoke :nyah:
-Ian
As I said, conservatively sized injectors, we are talking about a BL61 here right
Chis the mange is a better bit of kit, no doubt, as is the MAP ECU, but they can be made to work
Well, yeah, but the 3-4k rpm bit is still an issue in my opinion. Anyway, Paul will let us know how things turn out with his setup :thumbs:
-Ian
Agreed, but on a SAFC2 you could set these points for an adjustment area.
Best of luck
the powerfc always gets over looked here and i'm not sure why. its a great simple ecu with a superb basemap. it has shit apex support but with datalogit is awsome. they can also be picked up for really good prices these days, probably less than e(justabout)manage.
PFC isn't mentioned much as they tend to be very hard to get hold of in JZA80 form...
envy and paul w can get them, you can buy them from japan (takakaira) ebay etc.
i suppose the NO auto support is a big issue.
Well, yeah, but the 3-4k rpm bit is still an issue in my opinion. Anyway, Paul will let us know how things turn out with his setup :thumbs:
-Ian
Ian you obviously know your shit and for that :respekt: but Terry has hit the nail on the head hear no-one is arguing you will get a better set up with an e-manage but the original post hear was for a T61 which is what i have with 550s lets get it into perspective, if i hit 500 hp on the dino i'll be buzzin i realise my limitations (money) i have an auto and dont want a snarling undrivable 800 hp T78 monster so for me i went for kit with a track record for doing a job at the power levels i have, who knows in a years time i might be on hear asking your advise on the e-manage but at the moment i dont feel confident someone could set it up properly for me (and the nearest reputable tuner is 60 miles away) i'me just trying to give the guy a balanced view and not scare him shitless that he's going to have to spend £1500-2000 on fuel and timing control for his T61, Paul with regard to £250 for mapping "BUSTED" I confess that was the red wine talking shite, i havent priced that up yet, i did however pay £220 for the itc (second hand) and safc (new) (i know the price of an e-manage) i apologise if i got a little nasty
Ian you obviously know your shit and for that :respekt: but Terry has hit the nail on the head hear no-one is arguing you will get a better set up with an e-manage but the original post hear was for a T61 which is what i have with 550s lets get it into perspective, if i hit 500 hp on the dino i'll be buzzin i realise my limitations (money) i have an auto and dont want a snarling undrivable 800 hp T78 monster so for me i went for kit with a track record for doing a job at the power levels i have, who knows in a years time i might be on hear asking your advise on the e-manage but at the moment i dont feel confident someone could set it up properly for me (and the nearest reputable tuner is 60 miles away) i'me just trying to give the guy a balanced view and not scare him shitless that he's going to have to spend £1500-2000 on fuel and timing control for his T61, Paul with regard to £250 for mapping "BUSTED" I confess that was the red wine talking shite, i havent priced that up yet, i did however pay £220 for the itc (second hand) and safc (new) (i know the price of an e-manage) i apologise if i got a little nasty
Well, I was sort of just trying to say that there is a facet of going to a single turbo and using an airflow mapper that has to be considered, and that is the sequential transition point. Overall power output and turbo size is pretty much irrelevant at this point, it'll affect all single conversions, and it's a bugger to map around, as Charlie has also found out :) However, 550cc injectors will make life easier, no doubt about that :thumbs: Conversly though, a T61 won't as it'll spool up faster and give you way more air into the engine then the old stocker first turbo ever did, so that need some serious mapping around.
I'm not trying to put a downer on you, if you have chosen this setup and have someone to map it then go for it, I'm genuinely interested in the results as the more data we all get the better informed we all are. Just tell your mapper to concentrate on the midrange and part throttle - you could map the 100% throttle in twenty minutes :)
-Ian
I shouldn't have read this thread, making me think twice now about going single when my twins go!! May just go for hybrids instead!!
I shouldn't have read this thread, making me think twice now about going single when my twins go!! May just go for hybrids instead!!
I just read a thread where you said that you very rarely speed and that if you do it is to do 90 mph on the motorway. With that in mind, why would your twins "go"?
Back on topic - What i said about the AEM earlier goes for the E-manage too. Alex has been very fortunate to have had the help and skill of Ian to call on. I have no one close that wanted to touch the E-manage and had to go miles away to get it mapped (and even then it wasn't done properly)hence my change to a Motec.
This is the problem we have in the UK. A lack of skills with mapping certain equipment.
Gaz Walker
03-06-05, 13:08
I just read a thread where you said that you very rarely speed and that if you do it is to do 90 mph on the motorway. With that in mind, why would your twins "go"?
Think I was just reading the same thread CJ!
You should sell it and get an NA Trev :nyah:
Sorry! :innocent:
Gaz.
I just read a thread where you said that you very rarely speed and that if you do it is to do 90 mph on the motorway. With that in mind, why would your twins "go"?
How long does it take me to get to 90? :D
Breaking the speed limit is no indication of stress on a turbo surely?
I am running 1.15 BAR it's only a matter of time?
I am running 1.15 BAR it's only a matter of time?
Well, considering your driving style (based on your comments regarding only speeding on motorways), I doubt you are ever in positive boost long enough to worry about longevity :tongue:
Well, considering your driving style (based on your comments regarding only speeding on motorways), I doubt you are ever in positive boost long enough to worry about longevity :tongue:
Well I often get called an old man, by my old man!!!
The lady friend tells me to put my foot down quite often as well.
They seem healthy enough, but as I'm sure you're aware there's no guarantee with things like this - I'm just planning ahead!! They WILL break at some point, it might be after everything else on the car has broken and it's left for dead in a scrappy in 20 years time but I doubt it.
As Ian said 100% throttle is easy to map, im just experiencing the part throttle mapping dilema, which can be harder on an auto as the box doesnt always change at the same revs.
MANU does help but it needs to be right whereever the box decides to change and not leave a big lean whole.
Also - Dont expect to run any more than 1.4 bar on 550's. At 1.4 bar at ~6300 revs (auto remember) duty is around 95%.
Also - Dont expect to run any more than 1.4 bar on 550's. At 1.4 bar at ~6300 revs (auto remember) duty is around 95%.
Yow, that's pushing it :) What AFRs you getting at 95% full bore high rpm?
-Ian
Back on topic - What i said about the AEM earlier goes for the E-manage too. Alex has been very fortunate to have had the help and skill of Ian to call on. I have no one close that wanted to touch the E-manage and had to go miles away to get it mapped (and even then it wasn't done properly)hence my change to a Motec.
This is the problem we have in the UK. A lack of skills with mapping certain equipment.
Is the motec supposed to be easier to tune than the AEM?
Is the motec supposed to be easier to tune than the AEM?
LOL
- in a word no. but it would probably be the best option. But a layman couldn't just jump in and tune it.
Is the motec supposed to be easier to tune than the AEM?
To me, both systems would be as hard as each other as my mapping skils are zero. :D
CJ, did you talk to Powerstation?
CJ, did you talk to Powerstation?
Not yet. The car is back at Owen today and they are going to look at the intercooler pipework and the issue at 7k rpm.
Yow, that's pushing it What AFRs you getting at 95% full bore high rpm?
Ian - <11.3 - you have seen the logs. Its actually about 1.35 bar as there is a 0.05 discrepency between my defi and the blitz boost controler display peek hold.
Ian - <11.3 - you have seen the logs. Its actually about 1.35 bar as there is a 0.05 discrepency between my defi and the blitz boost controler display peek hold.
What sort of power is your car puttin out. Cuz when i go single i will probably be goin with the 550cc and BL61 as well.
cheers
~420 on wastegate boost - 1.1bar. Feels like a lot more at 1.4! Only run that on the track though ;) and I dont wanna blow the auto box!
I was very impressed with secondjumps setup, great idle, spool up and power delivery.
I believe you worked on it Ian? Good job sir :D
Ian - <11.3 - you have seen the logs. Its actually about 1.35 bar as there is a 0.05 discrepency between my defi and the blitz boost controler display peek hold.
Oh yeah, so there is definitely room for improvement there :D Your duty cycle will go down to more reasonable levels as you pull back the fuelling, seeing as it's somewhere under 11.3. Bit more power as well :shrug: Be interesting to see what the duty is around the 11.8's, see how those 550's perform.
-Ian
I was very impressed with secondjumps setup, great idle, spool up and power delivery.
I believe you worked on it Ian? Good job sir :D
Thanks very much, I consider that quite a compliment :cool:
-Ian
Thanks very much, I consider that quite a compliment :cool:
-Ian
Then some LOL
secondjump
03-06-05, 19:20
I was very impressed with secondjumps setup, great idle, spool up and power delivery.
I believe you worked on it Ian? Good job sir :D
Three hours work on mapping the e-manage then three hours chatting :D
Three hours work on mapping the e-manage then three hours chatting :D
Took about the same for my hybrids ;) --- oooh, and we went to little chef :read:
Just tell your mapper to concentrate on the midrange and part throttle - you could map the 100% throttle in twenty minutes :)
-Ian
thanks for that Ian, excellent thread
A minor resurrection - rain stopped play at the weekend alas, but here are a couple of tasty datalogs I managed to get... As ever I'm tweaking the pesky 3500-4000 bit :)
-Ian
bit of an old thread ressurection but to just clear up a few points i was questioned on, the car has now been set up by Thor with an ITC and SAFC running a T61 with UK spec cams, 550 injectors and some light head work, firstly the cost to map was £150 (this is why i went this route) secondly the A/F's at the change over point for the second turbo are a compromise between power and safety (safety being the operative word) thirdly the car made 510 rwhp @ 1.4 bar boost, 478 ft/lb of torque, off boost the car made 320 rwhp, so anyone thinking of going single and has'nt got a massive budget it can be done, without wishing to be contraversial would anyone with a simaler speck to my car care to post up there power figures (and cost to map) using a stand alone or e-manage so people going this route can have a balanced view
I guess they'd need to also be power figures from Thor's Dynapack to have any meaning at all.
Well done for getting her running nicely on a budget Paul. We don't all have pots of money to spend on ECUs and mapping time. :(
We don't all have pots of money to spend on ECUs and mapping time. :(
dont get me wrong Jake i wish i did
Geezabloke
22-07-05, 09:37
bit of an old thread ressurection but to just clear up a few points i was questioned on, the car has now been set up by Thor with an ITC and SAFC running a T61 with UK spec cams, 550 injectors and some light head work, firstly the cost to map was £150 (this is why i went this route) secondly the A/F's at the change over point for the second turbo are a compromise between power and safety (safety being the operative word) thirdly the car made 510 rwhp @ 1.4 bar boost, 478 ft/lb of torque, off boost the car made 320 rwhp, so anyone thinking of going single and has'nt got a massive budget it can be done, without wishing to be contraversial would anyone with a simaler speck to my car care to post up there power figures (and cost to map) using a stand alone or e-manage so people going this route can have a balanced view
Sounds good Paul.
How is the car running now? Idle? Starting? are there any issues since you have taken this route?
Is yours a UK spec with MAF sensor? sorry (edit) just seen JDM
Dave
I have plans on dyno'ing mine next week :sly:
Mapping cost = £0 lol
-Ian
Geezabloke
22-07-05, 09:38
I have plans on dyno'ing mine next week :sly:
Mapping cost = £0 lol
-Ian
Excellent, is that the standard charge Ian? ......... :eyebrows:
Dave
idle is fine its a bit lumpy when the car is cold but spot on when warm, i'me going to fit an oil cooler as the car does run hotter, obviously the fuel consumption hasnt improved with the increased power but hey you cant have everything, Ian C your a lucky boy i wish i owned a dyno it does'nt really answer the question of what the average punter would pay for mapping an e-manage or stand alone
idle is fine its a bit lumpy when the car is cold but spot on when warm, i'me going to fit an oil cooler as the car does run hotter, obviously the fuel consumption hasnt improved with the increased power but hey you cant have everything, Ian C your a lucky boy i wish i owned a dyno it does'nt really answer the question of what the average punter would pay for mapping an e-manage or stand alone
Hahaha I wish I owned a dyno as well! :ecstatic: my housemate may not approve though :sly: Anyway, I wasn't meaning to annoy you or anything it was just a silly off-the-cuff comment (which I paid for with Geeza's witty retort :p )
E-Manage mapping = £300. Standalone, no idea.
-Ian
its all gone quiet on this thread c'mon Ian C and Paul E i was asked to put up the numbers when i had the car mapped, so hear they are again if you missed the first time T61 with SAFC and ITC 510 rwhp and 457 ft/lb torque, you seem a little shy with the numbers boys are they a trade secret, its all good and well sniggering at other peoples efforts but if you cant back it up with substance it dont mean jack :stickpoke
Dragonball
24-07-05, 23:38
Just saw this Paul - and not aware of anyone sniggering - figures sound very good and congrats on getting it done!
Hope it all goes well...
BTW - Standalone system probably £600 to map inc
idle is fine its a bit lumpy when the car is cold but spot on when warm, i'me going to fit an oil cooler as the car does run hotter, obviously the fuel consumption hasnt improved with the increased power but hey you cant have everything, Ian C your a lucky boy i wish i owned a dyno it does'nt really answer the question of what the average punter would pay for mapping an e-manage or stand alone
The going rate for mapping an AEM ecu seems to be £600-650 depending on where you go.
is that a fixed price Tony? how many hours are they quoting? that include any fuel?
Matt Harwood
25-07-05, 09:00
its all gone quiet on this thread c'mon Ian C and Paul E i was asked to put up the numbers when i had the car mapped, so hear they are again if you missed the first time T61 with SAFC and ITC 510 rwhp and 457 ft/lb torque, you seem a little shy with the numbers boys are they a trade secret, its all good and well sniggering at other peoples efforts but if you cant back it up with substance it dont mean jack :stickpoke
Unless all the car's you want to compare get their results from the same dyno, the figures are totally meaningless....
As an example, I know of one car that read ~460 rwhp on a dyno-dynamics wheel dyno, and ~600 rhhp on Thor's Dyna-pack hub dyno.
I'm not saying either are wrong, but as you can see, they're worlds apart. :)
its all gone quiet on this thread c'mon Ian C and Paul E i was asked to put up the numbers when i had the car mapped, so hear they are again if you missed the first time T61 with SAFC and ITC 510 rwhp and 457 ft/lb torque, you seem a little shy with the numbers boys are they a trade secret, its all good and well sniggering at other peoples efforts but if you cant back it up with substance it dont mean jack :stickpoke
Well, I've got more coil packs on order so that I don't have to dyno on 0.9bar :mad: Full set of new ones, fix this recurring misfire once and for all. My efforts are going into getting the car sorted for 10otb, if I can fit a dyno in on Saturday I will. Hope that's alright with you, I wouldn't want to disappoint ;)
Not overly interested in the top end bhp figure anyway, apart from showoff material - it's how the car feels to drive that I'm after. Not only is it stupid fast at WOT, but I can also blast through the gears between 3-4000rpm on part throttle nicely. So that's good enough for me. Drivability can't be dyno'd though, so I guess it doesn't mean jack ;)
-Ian
Geezabloke
25-07-05, 14:42
its all gone quiet on this thread c'mon Ian C and Paul E i was asked to put up the numbers when i had the car mapped, so hear they are again if you missed the first time T61 with SAFC and ITC 510 rwhp and 457 ft/lb torque, you seem a little shy with the numbers boys are they a trade secret, its all good and well sniggering at other peoples efforts but if you cant back it up with substance it dont mean jack :stickpoke
Did any week areas show up Paul? ie. any part of the rev range showing as running lean? and was it set up using various throttle positions throughout the rev ranges or all on WOT?
Am very interested on your findings
Dave :taped:
Did any week areas show up Paul? ie. any part of the rev range showing as running lean? and was it set up using various throttle positions throughout the rev ranges or all on WOT?
Am very interested on your findings
Dave :taped:
geezabloke sorry for the delay in answering i've been away touring the highlands of Scotland in the supe 1040 miles covered and the car ran like a swiss watch, well done Mr Toyota, the fueling is a compromise with the SAFC due to the limited resolution, Pete at thor made sure the the top end was safe then tweaked the rest of the range in as best he could finishing with a road test and final adjustments, the pesky bit is the 4000 rpm change over point but everything is safe which is the main thing, the car drives spot on and after doing 1000 miles the fuel consumption at normal speeds doesnt seem any different, i cant see what all the this anti SAFC snobbery is all about, i asked pete if there would be any advantage of going to an e-mange in the future and he said with my current set up he would'nt bother it would be a s**t load of hassle for very little gain and the best route to go if upgrading again would be a stand alone ecu, just to emphasise again i am very happy with the way the car drives throttle response is superb and the only "richness" i can detect is a bit of a burble on overrun, i think it speaks for itself the 2 biggest critics of this set-up on this thread wont post power figures (might be embarrasing eh boys) for whatever reason and hide behind "my cars more drivable than yours :blahblah: " as mentioned ealier in this thread i dont have pots of money to spend and dont want to have to rag the arse out of the car spending months mapping an e-manage, you pays your money etc, all i can say from my own expierience with a T61 with 550's the SAFC, ITC route is a relatively cheap method of control (total outlay including set up £400) that does a good job at my power levels, hope this helps fella
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