View Full Version : I nave seen the future ....Its AEM
After slagging them off a while back i now have to admit that the AEM has completley taken me aback with the ease in which the mapper tuned it tonight , the freaky thing was alltering the transmission characteristics as we were driving and the fact that it drives (gearbox wise) completley different on the engine load , we have tuned it to change gear so much better on very light throttle than the stock eCU , mis throttle different again and it now changes at full throttle at 7500 rpm not before or after !!!, we have a tiny bit of fine tuning on the cold start tommorrow but the car starts and idles hot or cold with no throttle at all , idles at 1000 rpm with 1200 cc inj (we could lower it even more if i wanted ) revs cleaner than ever and drives in stop start traffic like a bog stock car , it feels less laggy than with the 67 i started with and is significantly quicker at 1.5 bar on optimax than it was at 2.2 bar and 118 , we have a rough idea of the HP from the duty cycle of the injectors and the car pulls right thru to 8000rpm so fast its unbelievable , Race fuel mapping tommorrow then :cool:
Im now convinced that a lot of the probs in the past with AEM were old software and tuning related .
You would not believe how quickly the guy has mapped it and it is the most economical at light throttle cruising speeds its ever been , if i was offered any ECU FOC tommorrow id leave it in thats for sure
Dude :cool:
Yup...
I've stood by the AEM before, plus I like the fact that it is open unlike the HKS units...
Now if only they could sort out the VVTi properly, I would have one in mine tomorrow...
Gav
Problem with idling speed if engine has big injectors then? This normal?
Yup...
I've stood by the AEM before, plus I like the fact that it is open unlike the HKS units...
Now if only they could sort out the VVTi properly, I would have one in mine tomorrow...
Gav
The guys off to map a VVTI next week in europe , dont know if they have the fly by wire working though
Dude :devil:
Problem with idling speed if engine has big injectors then? This normal?
Just a little bit :p
Dude :p
Hmmm, did not realize they had a drop in replacement, I know a few guys have rewired the VVTi harness to plug into the standard AEM supra Ecu..
I just like the flexibility it gives with the additional controls which can be wired into things such as aquamist and the like.
Gav
Hmmm, did not realize they had a drop in replacement, I know a few guys have rewired the VVTi harness to plug into the standard AEM supra Ecu..
I just like the flexibility it gives with the additional controls which can be wired into things such as aquamist and the like.
Gav
Dude i cant belive what this guy was doing to my car it changed character more times than Mike Yarwood , at just 1.55 bar on optimax it is proper silly quick , feels quicker than 2.2 on race fuel last year and the afr doesnt even flicker at WOT
Dude :complain:
Nice to see its working for you John.
Its neat isnt it. :eyebrows:
Nice to see its working for you John.
Its neat isnt it. :eyebrows:
Im chuffed to Bits U , just wished i understood it a bit more !!! :complain:
Dude :devil:
haha, it took me quite a while to understand some of the accel fueling stuff. but it does alot for the money ... :woot:
bet it goes like stink now.... hows the bitch of a 74 spooling? any logs? id like to compare,roughly .. thanks. :D
haha, it took me quite a while to understand some of the accel fueling stuff. but it does alot for the money ... :woot:
bet it goes like stink now.... hows the bitch of a 74 spooling? any logs? id like to compare,roughly .. thanks. :D
U i dont seem to have any lag , ill get a copy of the logs and you can have a look , i will not be swapping on the small turbo for street use as i planned , no need TBh the car is now a bit dangerous for the road unless driven very sensibly
Dude ;)
sheet dude, this thread won't do any good to my bank balance...
sheet dude, this thread won't do any good to my bank balance...
Especially not when you ask the guy what diffreence it can make to a BPU car it wont
Dude :cool:
I'd better not ask then.
Thanks for the tip dude.
After slagging them off a while back ....
:rolleyes: :taped: :D
Dude, the person doing the mapping...do we know them?
How much roughly would an AEM be?
JB
so wot could aem do 4 a bpu car?
:woot:
I take it it's been mapped using boost comp to be done so fast?
As Us said it's a wicked bit of kit for the money. Now's the time to start :rtfm: as you'll love some of the features it has.
went in Dudes car today and it does seem to drive well:thumbs:
Had a long chat with the mapper and it would appear that other make a few fundemental mistakes with the set up.
We had a little play up against my car and it does go well, my brakes are better tho ;)
:woot:
I take it it's been mapped using boost comp to be done so fast?
As Us said it's a wicked bit of kit for the money. Now's the time to start :rtfm: as you'll love some of the features it has.
1.6 bar , pump fuel , perfect AFR's on WOT , starts with no throttle from hot or cold , idles like stock , drives in traffic , hauls ass , enough said IMO my mapper is God , ask Terry S if it drives ok in traffic , now mapped to over 2bar on race fuel (poor guy riding a ZX9R picked the wrong sup to race !!!! :cool: ) , BTW Terrys car is devastatingly fast and prob a better road car !!!!
Dude :complain:
I want a go in terry's car then sod urs lol :p
it would appear that other make a few fundemental mistakes with the set up.
Is this anything general or more specific to high hp cars like Dudes? If it's something fairly generic maybe you'd care to share?
what difference can it make to a BPU car? :sly: oh and also is AEM the best way to get 8000 rpm reb limit (along with all the other benefits?)
To a BPU car it can do anything any other fuelling/timing computer do, plus a bunch of other things that only stand alone ecu's can do such as increase rev limits.
However, it will take longer to set-up fresh out of the box than your usual piggy back type ecu's. However as more and more people get the AEM, there are more and more people with basemap's closer to your set-up that you can load as a starting point.
If you mean will it give you HP gains, yes, but only in the same way as any piggy back computer will (ie you can lean out the overfuel and gain HP that way)
The REAL added bonus is it's flexibility as a stand alone in that you can add more and more to it (which to be fair you can pretty much do to any end user programmable stand alone ecu)
BUT, and this is the BIG BUT, as it's been mentioned on here many times, a programmable ecu is only ever as good as it's programmer. (Hence why good engine mappers get to fly around the world mapping peoples cars)
If you want more information try here:- http://www.aempower.com
with their dedicated forum here :- http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/index.php I think you'll need to register to use the forum.
Hope that helps.
I want a go in terry's car then sod urs lol :p
Do your self a favour James , DO NOT go for a ride in terrys unless you have a few grand spare !!!!!
Dude :cool:
The guys off to map a VVTI next week in europe , dont know if they have the fly by wire working though
The VVTi is not in the car yet, so we'll not be mapping it next week. Got another car we're going to map. Fly by wire is crap, we ditched that.
Also, the UK is Europe also guys! hahahaha.
Do your self a favour James , DO NOT go for a ride in terrys unless you have a few grand spare !!!!!
Dude :cool:
Yep! Ive been in Tel's, mine feels like a smart car now!
Just as a matter of interest how much are you talking for a AEM set up? And is there any where in the northwest that could do it? Cheers :)
The VVTi is not in the car yet, so we'll not be mapping it next week. Got another car we're going to map. Fly by wire is crap, we ditched that.
Also, the UK is Europe also guys! hahahaha.
Sorry Arnout, disagree about the FBW, it has some great functions including engine protection, but I do understand it is hard to set up with 99% of ECU's.
LOL about Europe, some here are a little insular ;)
Dude, I couldnt fault the way the guy had the car running, I was/am very impressed.
Tony, the info is not for me to share really, its the guy's livelyhood, but I am sure Dude will put you in touch as by the sounds he could be a regular over here if there is a demand.
Tony, the info is not for me to share really, its the guy's livelyhood, but I am sure Dude will put you in touch as by the sounds he could be a regular over here if there is a demand.
This top secret mr X tuner guy is one of my supra friends and we will go next week to the states to get the new course of AEM programming (for the custom boxes). We'll be doing most of the AEM tuning together in Europe as we're officially appointed by the European AEM importer (yes people, there is an official AEM importer in Europe).
oh, btw, about people flying in to tune your car. I personally have great experience with Sean McElderry of Torquefreaks. He has to come from the states but he's in europe like one week every month (at least). Good guy also.
hey and Terry. Drive by wire sucks big ass :)
To a BPU car it can do anything any other fuelling/timing computer do, plus a bunch of other things that only stand alone ecu's can do such as increase rev limits...Agreed, with two small exceptions imo/fwiw:
It doesn't shift oem auto trannys quite as well as the oem ecu. Don't get me wrong, an AEM can shift an oem or upgraded-oem auto tranny, but the oem ecu is noticeably better at (for example) adapting shift lead-in points & pressures over time (as the tranny wears) than the AEM. Fwiw, some auto Supra owners find it shifts fine, and others have had severe problems trying to get it to work properly (especially with more horsepower and an upgraded oem tranny). Obviously this wouldn't be an issue either way for a manually-shifted TH400.
I'm honestly not sure if I would recommend *any* standalone ecu for a bpu mkiv Supra (or even a small single turbo). I'm just not sure the cost/benefit is there (especially when you add in the cost of tuning/tweaking). Typically a downloaded-off-the-internet 'map' will get your Supra 80%-95% of the results you're looking for, but flying experts 'over the pond' to get that last 5%-20% can get rather pricey. Alternatively you might spend (literally) months of learning to build up the expertise to do the 'tweaking' yourself. The AEM is a powerful, feature-rich ecu, but those features do come at the expense of simplicity.
All that said, I'm running an AEM in my (6spd) Supra, and (again) I agree with the other information that has been posted here (assuming the AEM has been upgraded to the latest software version).
...is AEM the best way to get 8000 rpm reb limit (along with all the other benefits?)Imo, the quickest and easiest way to get an upgraded rev limit is to go with an oem ecu upgrade (eg. gForce or Technosquare).
hey and Terry. Drive by wire sucks big ass :)
LOL yeah yeah, have a chat with your crazy mate, and ask just how bad it sucks on my car with a baby turbo;)
:banghead: ...Typically a downloaded-off-the-internet 'map' will get your Supra 80%-95% of the results you're looking for...
Is this the general consensus mate, or is the percentage a lot less in reality?
The UK and US spec are not that different, so if the US map were to be as good as 80-95% then on a standard UK car it wouldn't be far off.
Alternatively the car may run like crap with this map v1.03 (or whatever) and the understanding is that "hey, you've just bought a fully programmable system and this is only a base map, meant to make it idle, so you don't have to put it on a flatbed to take it to the authorised dealer/mapper who knows how to enable/unlock features and make it work properly" :banghead:
I have an extensive article from "turbo and high performance" a few months back proclaiming this to be a truly plug'n'play solution, you just unplug your stock supra ECU, plug the AEM with their map and off you go, everything honky-dory (apart from the odd optimisation here and there)
I just wonder if there is an 'artistic licence' ;) in the definition of plug'n'play in this occassion. Technically speaking, it could just mean that you don't have to rewire your main loom and the existing sensors are retained (which is true to an extent)
Reading the 'supra' part of the AEM forum leaves me with more questions than answers :blink:
MONKEYmark
08-05-05, 18:43
nice one on getting it set up. got to :respekt: the guys who can tune the car. HPF aem demo video looks great how they got car driving like stock.
SUPRA VIDEO
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/videos/HorsepowerFreaksAEMDemo.wmv
VIPER VIDEO
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/videos/aemviperondyno.wmv
GETTING STARTED DOC
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/TechArticles/AEM/AEM%20Install%20FAQ.doc
Nice one Mark --- shame though that the links in the 'getting started' doc don't work.
This Blkmgk guy is a regular poster in the AEM forum, and he's a punter I think, not a qualified dealer or anything...so he's still trying to learn from his own (and other people's) mistakes
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head john.
The problem is that the differences between the US and Jap spec ARE big when it comes to mapping (as most cars in the UK now seem to be J-spec) and the problem is that unless I'm very much mistaken you'll not find one J-spec basemap on the AEM site, especially for a stock car.
I haven't got a JSpec mate, so that discrepancy would be the least of my problems.
I'm thinking more about the US 'free' maps being worth next to nothing*, either because they assume irrelevant fuel, or because nobody bothered to add aircon support properly, or because autobox settings are all over the place, that sort of thing. :innocent:
* for plug'n'play purposes, not to idle the car and allow it to be driven to the dealer/tuner/mapper
I haven't got a JSpec mate, so that discrepancy would be the least of my problems.
I'm thinking more about the US 'free' maps being worth next to nothing*, either because they assume irrelevant fuel, or because nobody bothered to add aircon support properly, or because autbox settings are all over the place, that sort of thing.
* for plug'n'play purposes, not to idle the car and allow it to be driven to the dealer/tuner/mapper
Yes if you wanted to download a map onto the car and drive it around you'd be dissapointed. The basemap's are there to either get you to a tuner, or for you to start tuning from.
Plug and play is more a reference to the fact it uses the stock wiring harness. (Although there is an amount of wiring involved to get the car to a state where you can tune it - ie wiring wbo2, MAP sensor, IAT sensor) So it's not as plain sailing as it makes out
I think the base maps are a HUGE bonus to tuners, saves them and the punter lots of time and money. It would seem that if the AEM is the real deal now that they have developed the system in public, and by that I mean letting the punter/tuners do the R&D. I dont agree with this, but if they now have a product free from glitches it is a bonus to the Supra community.
Dudes car ran fine, and I will be watching his progress with the AEM with huge interest.
I think the base maps are a HUGE bonus to tuners, saves them and the punter lots of time and money.
yes, *wild guess here!* could bring 40 hours down to 4 (IF you know what you're doing, big 'if')
...if they now have a product free from glitches it is a bonus to the Supra community.
Not from the publicly available maps it isn't glitch-free.
Dudes car ran fine, and I will be watching his progress with the AEM with huge interest.
He's not running on a map off the AEM site though, is he? ;)
yes, *wild guess here!* could bring 40 hours down to 4 (IF you know what you're doing, big 'if')
Not from the publicly available maps it isn't glitch-free.
He's not running on a map off the AEM site though, is he? ;)
But John I would never advocate someone stick a downloaded map in their car and forget about it! That in automotive suicide, and we'll leave that to others!
But John I would never advocate someone stick a downloaded map in their car and forget about it! That in automotive suicide..
Oh, I agree totally...
no two engines are 100% the same, even as they come out of the factory brand new you can find differences in compression of 5% for example.
My (self) question is whether AEM could have been more eeerrmmm...active in publicising the latest list of relevant maps (and full instructions of how the end-users can optimise them, if they so wish).
Or else the plug'n'play claims sound a bit hollow (to me, the whinger and eternally suspicious individual :eyebrows: )
My suspicion is that the exchange of the above information is minimal, for various reasons that I wouldn't want to mention in public. :taped:
You see, if you get a 'generic' EMS like the others, no plug'n'play claims are being made, the understanding is that you jump in the deep and assume responsibility for everything, they're not marketed as foolproof add-ons for the masses, rather the opposite.
One of the reasons I bought the supra was the availability of the AEM EMS for it, and now that I'm digging deeper I see a mixed bag, you understand. Not deal-breakers, but still not glasnost either...
MONKEYmark
08-05-05, 22:09
heres a big thread on supraforums about AEM
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170942&highlight=aem+mapping
would it not be a good thing people with experience in the AEM to share info for the good of the supra owners. maybe start a sticky thread. i just been reading supra forums. so much info and help when you reading up or trying to learn new things. the tuners who fly around the world tuning cars can fine tune it to perfection using it day in day out. its great to see dude got his car set up perfect from a pro tuner.
would be great to see a AEM thread for all the things you need to get up and running. and part numbers. also tlicence has put a lot of time into tuning his aem. its good to see supra owners helping each other out as thats what the club all about :respekt:
That's a good thread Mark :respekt:
Agreed, with two small exceptions imo/fwiw:
It doesn't shift oem auto trannys quite as well as the oem ecu. Don't get me wrong, an AEM can shift an oem or upgraded-oem auto tranny, but the oem ecu is noticeably better at (for example) adapting shift lead-in points & pressures over time (as the tranny wears) than the AEM. Fwiw, some auto Supra owners find it shifts fine, and others have had severe problems trying to get it to work properly (especially with more horsepower and an upgraded oem tranny). Obviously this wouldn't be an issue either way for a manually-shifted TH400.
I'm honestly not sure if I would recommend *any* standalone ecu for a bpu mkiv Supra (or even a small single turbo). I'm just not sure the cost/benefit is there (especially when you add in the cost of tuning/tweaking). Typically a downloaded-off-the-internet 'map' will get your Supra 80%-95% of the results you're looking for, but flying experts 'over the pond' to get that last 5%-20% can get rather pricey. Alternatively you might spend (literally) months of learning to build up the expertise to do the 'tweaking' yourself. The AEM is a powerful, feature-rich ecu, but those features do come at the expense of simplicity.
All that said, I'm running an AEM in my (6spd) Supra, and (again) I agree with the other information that has been posted here (assuming the AEM has been upgraded to the latest software version).
Imo, the quickest and easiest way to get an upgraded rev limit is to go with an oem ecu upgrade (eg. gForce or Technosquare).
Dont agree with your synopsis of the Box shift at all !!! I have never had my box shift with the OEM ecu wheer i thought it should , now it does , its configured to shift where I want it at very small throttle openings , where I want it to at part throttle and hits the mark at WOT every time , before i used it manually now i can leave it in drive , once the AEM has been tuned tweaks will be done at a very low price whenever the tuner is in the UK which looks like it may be quite often ;)
Dude :littled:
The autobox is electronically controlled dudes, so it will shift in whichever way the ECU tells it to shift.
That's not the issue, nor is it whether AEM can potentially do this or that (which I'm sure it can)
My issue is that it doesn't do any of this properly 'out of the box', using the latest maps from their (not so useful) forum. :complain:
The autobox is electronically controlled dudes, so it will shift in whichever way the ECU tells it to shift.
That's not the issue, nor is it whether AEM can potentially do this or that (which I'm sure it can)
My issue is that it doesn't do any of this properly 'out of the box', using the latest maps from their (not so useful) forum. :complain:
As I mentioned before John, PNP refers to the wiring NOT the mapping.
NO ecu will do what your asking it to do, because each engine is slightly different.
If what your looking for is a map that will get you going then there are maps available on the AEM forum (that should work with your UK spec). If you're looking for a map that you can run at 18psi then you're going to have to develop your own, although there are probably some maps that can get you pretty darn close. (ie just a case of tweaking fuelling and ignition to make sure afr's and egt's are good.)
I've found the reason why people are a bit cagey about handing out maps and saying "this will do what you want" is that everybody's engine's are slightly different and you will tend to get the numpty that will run the car at high boost with the thing detting away for extended amounts of time and damage the engine, then come back and say "you gave me a dodgy map". When the case is that they don't understand that each map needs to be tweaked for a particular car.
As I mentioned before John, PNP refers to the wiring NOT the mapping.
apparently yes, and that promise is true to some extent
(you still have to drop the air mass sensor, swap the map sensor, fit the IAT sensor and change the ignition to wasted spark. You really need to change the oxygen sensor to WB too)
I've found the reason why people are a bit cagey about handing out maps and saying "this will do what you want" is that everybody's engine's are slightly different and you will tend to get the numpty that will run the car at high boost with the thing detting away for extended amounts of time and damage the engine, then come back and say "you gave me a dodgy map".
That might be the case of course, but it could also be a bit more than that ;)
Are the forum maps 90-95% spot on?
That's the impression I had before delving deeper, and now I suspect that the percentage figure is a bit lower. More like software version 0.4, late alpha, if you know what I mean.
(I've got no problem with that, I can factor it in the final price, as long as it is clear that I am on a pre-beta and treat it as such.)
John, to be honest you seem fairly clued up with most things, so I shouldn't think it would be much of a problem for you.
I would say as long as you follow the instructions very carefully, you should be OK. I would also suggest that even if you do download a basemap, I would still go through it and make sure that you know what it is that you've got.
Understanding what it is your doing at each step and why it is your doing it is important, so that if you come accross a problem then you're much better equiped to solve it.
My fear is that I may encounter 'hidden' or 'obscure' ways to access certain supra-specific functions, perhaps left as a way for the dealers to have an edge, make money after the sale, you know what I mean, don't you ;)
My fear is that I may encounter 'hidden' or 'obscure' ways to access certain supra-specific functions, perhaps left as a way for the dealers to have an edge, make money after the sale, you know what I mean, don't you ;)
Why on earth would AEM do that? They don't make any money out of the tuning of the boxes.
And to limit the features in a sneaky fashion would be found out and mean they lost out in sales.
At least with a MoTeC you know you have to pay for additional features to be unlocked, but that fact is never hidden.
I hear what your saying. :thumbs:
I've found that AEM aren't the best at conveying instructions (a quick glance at the manual will show you that!) it's not that they're hiding anything but more they are just inept at telling you in the most logical way what it is you need to do! The manual is a nightmare to read, but to understand the software, read you must!! (and more importantly understand)
Saying that, everything is pretty much documented nowadays and it seems to work well. Sure there were some bugs in the earlier versions of the software but these seem to have been largely ironed out of late (touching wood!)
The few issues where options had been left out by default of the fully customisable menu's, again didn't seem to be due to any underhandedness but more just a function of finding out what options needed to be on the menu's by default and what didn't. As I said it's fully customisable so it was just a case of adding what you wanted onto a menu. Again though this seems to have been sorted.
If it will help I'll post my current map this evening, you can download the software + manual from the AEM site, and have a play with what is a REAL working map for a near stock (engine and fuelling wise) J-spec. Converting this map for a UK spec is a little involved but I could explain how to do it. No big problems.
Hope that helps,
Tony
Why on earth would AEM do that? They don't make any money out of the tuning of the boxes.
And to limit the features in a sneaky fashion would be found out and mean they lost out in sales.
I said that it is a 'fear' of mine mate, not a fact.
Just like a dream, only less real. ;)
As I mentioned before John, PNP refers to the wiring NOT the mapping.
NO ecu will do what your asking it to do, because each engine is slightly different.
I personally think that's bollocks. Did the Toyota engineers on the factory line 'fine tune' every ECU that was fitted? Nope. It's programmed the right way for that model of car and it works. The bottom line here is that AEM are providing a half-programmed ECU. They could easily provide a map for UK MKIV TT's, USA MKIV TT's & NA's etc etc but obviously it's not something they're willing to spend the money on doing.
which is fair enough, bearing in mind the efforts involved, but to have a 'programmable' ECU mimmic an OEM ecu is certainly not impossible. It might be expensive for them to do, but that's the only reason fully working maps aren't available. IMO it has nothing to do with 'no two engines being alike'
Did the Toyota engineers on the factory line 'fine tune' every ECU that was fitted? Nope. It's programmed the right way for that model of car and it works.
The stock ECU 'fine tunes' itself, as it has the ability to learn from the information it receives from the many sensors and using this info adapt the mapping to pre-set parameters. There will be certain tollerances that Toyota will build an engine to and the ECU programming will take these into consideration.
Don't know the AEM so can't comment on this.
The stock ECU has the ability to learn from the information it receives from the many sensors and using this info adapt the mapping to pre-set parameters.
Don't know the AEM so can't comment on this.
yeah I was considering adding that perhaps the AEM is inferior in this way. Presumably it is able to retard timing upon knock detection and things like that? surely..?
IMO it has nothing to do with 'no two engines being alike'
We are also taking about built engines that may have different internals, exhaust, fueling parts etc. These engines will also have been 'used' in most case, so there is different levels of wear to take into account, etc. Tony is right no 2 engines will be the same, especially highly modified ones.
erm, yeah, I understand that. But I would expect a 'BASE MAP' or 'STANDARD MAP' to essentially be able to run a stock car. You take out your Toyota ECU, you plug in the AEM with it's Toyota-OEM-mimmick-basemap, and you go from there. Plug in the AEM in place of the OEM box and it should work the same. I don't see that as impossible and it somehow seems kind of like a logical starting point.
The whole point of fitting a Aftermakrekt EMS is too gain controls over all inputs/outputs. like MAP sensors ,etc so then adjustments would be made anyway ...
No one is saying AEM is better than OEM ecu on a stock car? why would you put AEM on one in the first place if your BPU? or if you plan on going further, save yourself headache and get it when you NEED it!
Nothin beats stock ecu for hybrid/bpu levels, thats why AEM never went that far as to make proper basemaps fully tailored for BPU(without tweaking), as its really a APU mod.
Like you say its time,money and extra hassle.
LOL, AEM can do alot of things guys, you shoud take a look at the software .. :woot:
edit, really makes me laugh when people think that AEM would miss out such a important feature to counteract knock, when nearly all EMS have this. :thanks:
The F-con comes loaded with different base maps, but this can then only be fine tuned by selected pro HKS dealer. I guess this is mainly for safety reasons, to ensure that the mapping is done correctly by an approved tuner who knows what they are doing and so a car isn't just run on a base map which could be potentially dangerous.
well I didn't really think the AEM would not have a knock-sensor input and be able to retard timing. It was a reference to the point of OEM / AEM ECU's ability to work with sensors and make adjustments within defined parameters.
so... I still think there's a simple point that's being overlooked... Given proper programming, could the AEM mimmick the OEM unit. I beleive the answer would be Yes, and I still believe this would be a better starting point for someone swapping out their stock ECU for an AEM, and then going onto tuning it from there.
I understand what your saying Carlos. It is entirely possible to make the AEM run as if it were stock, IF your car was stock. Most cars have been modified by the time any third party EMS is introduced and such it requires these mods to be taken into account.
I kind of agree with what Ali has said, in so much as AEM haven't bothered to provide really pucka base-maps for stock cars, as they probably just don't have much need/requests for them. With that said though, for the few people (myself included) that are BPU and use the AEM a workable basemap would be much appreciated. (Although I very much doubt I would ever get one, without shelling out large amounts of cash!)
well I'm reading this thread (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170942&page=2&pp=25&highlight=aem+mapping) and it's making me want to buy one, just to have something to play with!! Wow just imagine all that control and what not. So what if I don't need one, looks really interesting, but alas as you say my car would run like a peice of shit if I just installed it with a base map. :(
see the thing is, there's something that REALLY pisses me off about my car, and it's the programming of the autobox.
I want it to change to third/fourth sooner/earlier when i'm feathering (and I mean feathering!) the throttle. Partly because of the noise (RSR, no cats), but mostly 'cause it's my "economode" driving.
And secondly the box will not kick down to 1st gear above ~34mph, which results in piss poor acceleration. It's actually quicker to hit the brakes, slow to 30, then floor it, than it is to just floor it from 40mph.
This is just one example. Then we have traction control, which I understand isn't too great in the AEM yet, but there's potential there..
The ECU in a car like the Supra controls litterally EVERYTHING, and some of you guys are basically saying that if we don't have a big fuckoff T67 turbo and bored-out cylinders, then we have no use for the AEM.
well I'm reading this thread (http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170942&page=2&pp=25&highlight=aem+mapping) and it's making me want to buy one, just to have something to play with!! Wow just imagine all that control and what not. So what if I don't need one, looks really interesting, but alas as you say my car would run like a peice of shit if I just installed it with a base map. :(
The ECU in a car like the Supra controls litterally EVERYTHING, and some of you guys are basically saying that if we don't have a big fuckoff T67 turbo and bored-out cylinders, then we have no use for the AEM.
That's partly why I have one on my BPU car. Because I like to "tinker" as my girlfriend puts it.
I see why people say you won't need any aftermarket fully programmable ecu on anything but a APU car, but try to disregard the money side of things. It should be (and IMHO is) capable of controlling a stock car as well as the stock ECU, with tuning.
The unfortunate thing is that it does require tuning for a stock car, because the base-maps are not 100%, when it is perfectly possible for them to be so. It's just improbable that AEM are willing to splash out the sort of cash to develop the basemaps that each of the manufacturer's that they can supply aftermarket EMS's for.
the base-maps are not 100%, when it is perfectly possible for them to be so. It's just improbable that AEM are willing to splash out the sort of cash to develop the basemaps
That's exactly what I've been trying to say.
Have you had yours tuned by an expensive AEM-pro or did you spend the time and teach yourself?
Let me tell you a little story..... lol
I bought a "basemap" from a guy on here. I thought it was going to match my set-up *exactly*. I gave it to JPS to install and tune (not a problem, as Leon was at the time running an AEM on his big HP car)
Unfortunately the map and my set-up were not so closely matched as I thought, so Leon struggled to map it (as it wasn't what he was expecting) after spending some time on it, he became aware that the cost (ie his hourly rate) was starting to mount up, so he stopped. He then handed it over to me. I knew nothing of engine mapping, so have had to learn completely from scratch.
I've not really adjusted much of what Leon gave me, as I'm not particularly confident, but it's fair to say, the car doesn't run silky smooth at all.
I'd love to get the car running right, but as I'm not able/willing to pay out the cash to get someone else to do it, it's just down to me to learn as much as I can and get in amongst it myself.
The problem with doing it like this, is nobody seems keen on giving prescriptive suggestions. The tuners don't because it's their lively-hood (fair enough) AEM don't want to, incase you feck it and come back to them saying you fecked my car and I'm going to sue you (which is understandable on their part) so it's just left to willing end user experts (like Blkmgk) who don't have enough time to sit down and do inch by inch through your car, and their 1000's of miles away anyway. Just the way it seems to be for me anyway.
Matt Harwood
21-05-05, 16:37
And secondly the box will not kick down to 1st gear above ~34mph, which results in piss poor acceleration. It's actually quicker to hit the brakes, slow to 30, then floor it, than it is to just floor it from 40mph.
When I had an auto, I found the same thing, but IIRC, changing into 1st at this speed only gives you about 1krpm headroom before hitting the redline and needing to change up anyway.
It's not a limitation of the ECU, it's a limitation of the rev-limiter, (there for engine safety), and lack of gears on the autobox.
That's exactly what I've been trying to say.
It's understandable why they're not though. Toyota would have spent millions developing the map for the 2JZGTE. AEM would have to match that, not ony for all of the Toyota engines they supply maps for, but also the Mazda's, Ford's, Mitsi's.......
... nobody seems keen on giving prescriptive suggestions. The tuners don't because it's their lively-hood (fair enough) AEM don't want to, .....so it's just left to willing end user experts (like Blkmgk) who don't have enough time to sit down and do inch by inch through your car, and their 1000's of miles away anyway. ...
My sentiments exactly. ;)
You can download a 'display' version of the AEM software from their site, install it and play a bit.
That way you'll see that the AEM does have the potential to control properly most (or all) of the functions that the stock ECU can --- plus a few more.
Those that it cannot do directly (say interface with Toyota's TC), it can do indirectly.
However, the key word here is 'potential'.
In order to realise this potential at BPU or stock you need a good base map, and that is not what you'll get for free.
IMO people will not provide one to you even for 'stock' use because there's money to made out of you once you've swapped the stock ECU.
I find the "no two engines are identical" argument a bit lame, frankly. AEM could have cared to post a handful of maps, for example one for US/UK spec stock, one for BPU (MAP sensor), one for JSpec. Times two, manual and auto. But where's the money in that? :sly:
Supras (to them) are a dead breed anyway, production has stopped long ago.
LOL John, it's no display software mate, that's it.
No two engines are the same, it's true, but the ECU could cater for this, but it requires setting up. IIRC the basemaps don't have O2FB or knock control enabled. I'll check and let you know...
LOL John, it's no display software mate, that's it....
There are no help files mate.
If that's the Full Monty, then it's no wonder nobody has got it running properly without paying extra for AEM-trained people to load a decent map ...
if you know EMS systems already, then you can navigate ur self roughly, but now people understand that the layout is rather not so straight forward as other ecus.
It lets the user into depth as to define the value of 1 RAW, and play with its main "clock" so to speak.
The real fun is watching people with badky tuned Fuel maps trying to use 02FB and then wonder why the cars AFR oscillates ... :eyebrows:
"rough navigation" is not fun when you have an expensive 6cyl engine that even needs a heavy-duty long-reach crane to come out if things go pear-shaped. (let alone ship parts from the States or overpriced ripoff-UK)
Without the precise definition of the various units involved, it's like playing with fire --- hardly my expectations from a 'plug-and-play' EMS.
But hey, if everything was done properly (above board perhaps) then there wouldn't be a need to provide training courses for AEM dealers at the US, would there?
( I still believe that we could stick together and do this, it's not rocket science, just needs a methodical approach, time, luck and goodwill )
my friend, im talking about understanding the software for guys that hav mapped motors before.
And yes rough navigation of optimal settings ie, ign,crank inj tables, fuel maps, and knock setting,can all be done even if your not a whiz at the software, and get the motor dialed up for driving. Like I say if you have experience with EMS before, then just logical thinking will get you through it.
Using special modifiers within the software can get your car running within a few good hours ...
Have fun, :)
Using special modifiers within the software can get your car running within a few good hours ... Special modifiers? Could you explain that a little for us please, Ali?
Jake,
I think what Ali is talking about here is a method of mapping called "boost compensation", nothing hidden or difficult to do, in fact I think AEM actively promote it as the prefered way to map your car (the supra basemaps are done this way)
What you would do basically for this is map for one load (say 10 psi). You would then copy the same values for 10 psi all over the main fuel map, so you end up with a main fuel map that only has the values for 10psi on. There is then a modifier table that you can use to multiply those fuel values against load. The basics is that say for 6000 rpm, at 20psi you would need twice as much fuel as 10psi. So on the modifier graph you simply set it to 200% for 20psi. This means that you can build up a map v.quickly compared to the old way of working out what each cell (fuel value) would be at each rpm and load site.
The problem I have is that because I have a FSE rising rate fuel regulator, it means that my boost compensation graph isn't a straight line, which makes is a bit more of a pain to map. Hence why I'm going to be flogging it for an aeromotive 1:1 regulator and fitting correct sized injectors.
Loads more detail on boost compensation can be found here on the aem forum (http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=11494&highlight=)
.....The basics is that say for 6000 rpm, at 20psi you would need twice as much fuel as 10psi.
Are you sure mate? ;)
Are you sure mate? ;)
is it: at 1bar you need twice as much as at 0bar? :rolleyes: ?
yes.
The half of airflow at 20psi boost is slightly less than that at 3 psi boost. Airflow and fuel requirements go together (more or less) if you want to keep AFR the same.
Nit-picking really, shouldn't distract from the valid point made by TLicence.
Simple mistake to make mate, not to worry.
Airflow is proportional to absolute pressure you see, so 20psi is really 14.7 + 20 = 34.7
Now the half of that is 17.3, which in 'boost' terms is 17.3 - 14.7 = 2.6psi :)
ahh yeah, but I never said PSIG did I? :eyebrows: :lol:
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