What BHP on Hybrids

I am sure this has been asked before but I have saerched and not found the info I need so my apologies but I am asking again.

My J-Spec Soop makes 371 HP at the Hubs running at 1.2bar. Realistically what HP am I liable to make on Stage 3 Hybrids. The reason why I ask I want an honest opinion if they are worth it. A Supplier has quoted in the region of £2000 inclusive of VAT to supply and fit.

I know a single requires a little bit extra mods but I already have or soon will have the following

* Walbro Uprated Fuel Pump

* Aeromotive FPR

* Power Enterprise 650cc Injectors

* Nurspec R Exhaust

* No Cats

* CW SMIC

* ERL Water Injection

* Cooler Plugs

* Apexi Power Intake

* Greddy Emanage & Profec E01

* WB02 Sensor Kit and Guage

I think I everything I need to run a single safely but my concern is with the Auto Transmission and the fuel lines. Would I need y to uprate these? MVP Motorsport are offering the PHR Stage 1 DBB for $4895.00 (£2500) This turbo looks very impressive and is rated to 600+ BHP.

Help me before I possibly make a serious mistake. I know the Single Kit wil be about another £1200 for fitting + tax but for this amount, it may be well worth it.

However if I need to pay to uprate the Auto Transmission + Fuel Lines + Intercooler + Proper Ducting, the an extra £1200 suddenly could be an extra £4000. I am not interested in 1/4 miles just a fast street car so all advice ids welcome especially from individuals who have Hybrids or have had hybrids and are now single.

Cheers

I have both setups (sig below) The stage 3 hybrids are ok (12.1 sec QM) but the PHR single is FAR better although i am looking at a autobox upgrade now as i think its reaching its limits at 1.5 bar. You could always go single and keep the boost down to 1bar and have the best of both with another 100 bhp available if you wanted to up the boost. I really think the single is a much nicer drive with seemless acceleration and very little lag.

I pulled about 412 out of my hybrids (thor)

Add Mapping too to your totals mate for either a single (thats if you can find anyone to map your e-manage of course!) and the hybrids

The hybrids will be slightly easier / cheaper I would have thought

Fuelling should be fine with what you have

That fitting price on that single is bloody expensive m8 - email me for a far better price for a complete supply and install package if you are so inclined!!

Our hybrids supply and fit are also approx £1800 - full specs available too

Cheers

Paul

Auto box upgrade...some say yes some say no... upgraded will obviously be safest

Im running Hybrids atm at 1.3bar..stock fuel system on MAP Ecu..getting 408bhp at the hubs (Thor). I read on here (Chris Wilson I think) that the transmission will only become a problem with "big power" and that its more a rate requirement of torque rather than bhp.

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=31970&page=1&pp=15

Tough call mate. I loved my old hybrids, they were very strong (but unknown supplier/make), and ran about 470 at the crank. Terry S squeaked 500 out of his. Both our setups were pretty much as far as you could push them though, intercooler, cams, injectors, etc.. If that's as far as you want to go then it's a viable upgrade, but the 650's will run a T61. You'd have to check with CW what his side intercooler will cope with, and I'd believe what he said.

You need to make a cost breakdown of both installs. Don't forget little things like the turbo gasket set for the hybrids or the exhaust centre section for the single turbo etc. See which is cheapest and how much by, and also factor in the installation labour costs. I'd rather fit a single any day because putting that sequential system back together is a mare, so it might actually be cheaper - saying that though there is additional work like intercooler pipes being cut to the right size, and needing a new BOV as the stock one gets junked, so that's the cost of cutting, welding, and extra shiny noise making bit on top of the single install.

Mapping costs the same on hybrids as it does on a single

-Ian

PS oh yeah you may want to budget for a new set of coil packs too as any weakness in them is soon shown up by a single turbo...

Screwed now, definitely cant make a decision, the hybrids are the cheaper option but I am worried in a year or so, i will want more. £2000 for an extra 50bhp seems steep.

Here is the link to the Turbo Kit I am looking at. Can someone with a whole lot more experience than me have a look at it and let me know if there is anything else required for the Install. The kit is the PHR Stage 1 DBB.

http://www.mvpmotorsports.com/Templates/frmTemplateH.asp?SubFolderID=211&SearchYN=N

Also could I run this on 650cc Injectors effectively or do I need bigger Injectors again.

Thanks

£2000 for an extra 50bhp seems steep.

 

Maybe, but remember you're getting to that equation by taking the hybrids at their maximum, vs a single on light boost...

Exactly Matt, the Hybrids do not seem viable. I am F***ED now.

I'm getting a bit miffed here. My set up is roughly:

hybrid turbos, Greddy FMIC, FCD, Apexi power filter, Veilside exhaust, 18's, double de-cat, S-AFC fuel computer, 550cc injectors, walbro fuel pump, boost controller

So if I run about 1.2Bar I'd only be making say 400 crank HP? Isn't that roughly what I'd be getting from just BPU?

Exactly Mate, I have been dynoed at Thor making 371rwhp on stock twins at 1.2bar, the examples on here are making 408 - 412 at the hubs (Thor) on hybrids.

Thsi is my point, is it worth spending £2000 on hybrids for another 40bhp at the hubs. Please someone tell me that Hybrids make more than this, I thought they are capable of 1.7Bar and 500+Bhp

I have hybrids - there good for 1.5 bar max - so i keep them at 1.3/1.4 but... I have no idea what there producing power wise....

Exactly Mate, I have been dynoed at Thor making 371rwhp on stock twins at 1.2bar, the examples on here are making 408 - 412 at the hubs (Thor) on hybrids.

 

Thsi is my point, is it worth spending £2000 on hybrids for another 40bhp at the hubs. Please someone tell me that Hybrids make more than this, I thought they are capable of 1.7Bar and 500+Bhp

No m8 - hybrids are what you get when your stocks go bang! They are limited to their set-up within the same housings as stock - and often end up just producing more jeat then converting to power is boost cranked up

Not worth changing otherwise IMHO -

Also - going single is probaly a more 'sensible' route - and the Vortex budget kit has got to be worthwhile considering as an option to these boys (one day we will find out what they produce!)

So basically... hybrids are a waste of time?

So basically... hybrids are a waste of time?

well - you wouldnt have to claim them on the insurance..... looks the same as stock turbos...

1.7 Bar on Stage 3 ? I thought the limit for stage 3 was 1.4 max.

Paul - I've got some 2nd hand stock ceramic turbos coming my way. They'll definitely need a rebuild. What's the deal with rebuild on turbos via M-GT ? Are they Hybrid stage 1 ?

Info please my good man!

I belive M-GT go staight to stage 3 - thats what i have... - still going strong..

well - you wouldnt have to claim them on the insurance..... looks the same as stock turbos...

 

Yep but I could have just had em rebuilt as stock, saved a fortune and have about the same power as the hybrids?

So basically... hybrids are a waste of time?

Not necessarily - the insurance route has been mentioned

The extra costs of going single are also often understated -

I will be producing a budget single kit using a cast manifold very soon as an alternative

hybrids DO produce more power.... trust me!

Exactly Mate, I have been dynoed at Thor making 371rwhp on stock twins at 1.2bar, the examples on here are making 408 - 412 at the hubs (Thor) on hybrids.

 

Thsi is my point, is it worth spending £2000 on hybrids for another 40bhp at the hubs. Please someone tell me that Hybrids make more than this, I thought they are capable of 1.7Bar and 500+Bhp

I went stage 3 hybrid even though my stocks were fine. The car sings on the top end and is a handful when the second turbo comes in (much more than before) but sometimes I feel its all a bit academic..Hybrids or single the car still struggles for grip!!!! How much can you really use?? A fully specc'd hybrid car can makes 500bhp which is devastating on the road a small single will make 500bhp+. If I was doing it again I would seriously consider £1800 Vortex kit + 650s + SAFC and see how that compared to hybrids...

Horses for courses i think, when i first got my hybrids I wasn't planning on big HP and didn't want to get into re-mapping or a bigger fuel system. This was on the J spec and ran fine for 2 years at 1.5 bar (using 103RON)

1.7 Bar on Stage 3 ? I thought the limit for stage 3 was 1.4 max.

 

Paul - I've got some 2nd hand stock ceramic turbos coming my way. They'll definitely need a rebuild. What's the deal with rebuild on turbos via M-GT ? Are they Hybrid stage 1 ?

 

Info please my good man!

Can get these rebuilt to any stage now m8 -

Stock (ceramic to steel) rebuilt normally about £700

All units listed directly replace the standard Toyota Supra CT20 Turbocharger.

Part No. 17201-46030 & 17201-46030

Just awaiting confirmation on pricing - approx at present - but close etc

STAGE 1 - £975.00

MD301 Standard specification turbocharger with left hand thread inconnel shaft & wheel, staggered gap/ total seal turbine end piston ring fitted, 270 degree thrust bearing, Max recommended boost level 16-18 p.s.i. 250-280 bhp Approx

STAGE 2 - £1175.00

MD234 High flow 55 Trim TB03 compressor wheel - CNC re-profiled compressor housing - 360 degree ramped thrust bearing, modified bearing housing, left hand thread inconnel shaft & wheel, staggered gap/ total seal turbine end piston ring fitted. Max recommended boost level 20-22 p.s.i. 300-320 bhp approx

STAGE 3 - £1285.00

MD315 High flow 60 Trim TB03 compressor wheel - CNC re-profiled compressor housing - 360 degree ramped thrust bearing, modified bearing housing, left hand thread inconnel shaft & wheel with 10 degree cutback, staggered gap/ total seal turbine end piston ring fitted. Max recommended boost level 26-28 p.s.i. 350-360 bhp approx

Please note - these are flywheel figures - and use for reference i.e. increases in HP

think Richie S mate almost 500bhp on ENVY stage 3 hybrids.... i think!

 

STAGE 3 - £1285.00

 

MD315 High flow 60 Trim TB03 compressor wheel - CNC re-profiled compressor housing - 360 degree ramped thrust bearing, modified bearing housing, left hand thread inconnel shaft & wheel with 10 degree cutback, staggered gap/ total seal turbine end piston ring fitted. Max recommended boost level 26-28 p.s.i. 350-360 bhp approx

 

Please note - these are flywheel figures - and use for reference i.e. increases in HP

26-28 psi - nearly 2 bar?! is that an Increase of 350???

Just curious...

I spoke to Turbo Technics, they told me their Stage 3 were good for 1.7bar and 500bhp. I suppose it comes down to how you convert the hub figure we have all been mentioning

My car is producing 371 at the hubs, I know we all use an transmission loss of 15 - 20%. Using this figure would mean I am supposedly somewhere between 430 and 460 at the crank (Sounds optamistic). If this is the case then the buying Hybrids rated at 500bhp (Crank) only gives me an extra 40 - 70bhp for £1600 exc fitting.

Now if we all have the the hub to crank conversion wrong and it is only actually about 5 - 10% loss, then my crank bhp would only be 390 - 412 based on 371 at the hubs. in this case buying turbos rated at 500bhp will give me a possible 100bhp gain which aint to bad for the money.

What do we think, AGREE OR DISAGREE

What power figures are the people with singles making on the T61 Kits or the PHR Stage 1 Kits?