NA Track car

Some brief history then onto the good Supra related stuff...

I come from an Audi background, love my cars, Ive had a Supra before (back in 2000) and loved the way it behaved, so when I decided to sell my S4 because there are too many idiots on the road, too many cameras and not enough opportunities to really push myself, the S4 was a great car, but after 4WD super grip and V8 grunt, I decided on the track car route - but RWD .. I live close to Silverstone, Millbrook and Rockingham - seems rude not too.

Because I want to really hone my skills (I don't think I am Senna!) I am planning on driver training and tuning the car as my skills progress. So out and out power wasn't my goal, hence not going for a TT. I am not planning on drifting, I am planning on understanding the car, dynamics, my limits and reactions, not just blasting about on full power.

In this respect there are enough people out there tracking MX5's who agree with me, except I am 6' 4" and a Supra is a better fit, plus there is the option further down the line to upgrade power when my skills improve.

As some of you may know, this car was up for sale recently, the spec (LSD, Manual, Black) fit, price was good, I pulled the trigger.

Two days in and going round a bend in damp weather at speeds half of which I would take in the S4, the car spun out on me, it didn't feel stable at all - two 360 degree spins and a lot of steering work... I ended up arse first in a central reservation full of bushes :roll eyes:

I checked the car over, no visible damage, no one involved, hit nothing... big vibration from the front though, so cleared the mud out of the alloys, took her to National Tyres and got the wheels checked, balanced and aligned... felt ok, but still loose.

So, full in-detail check over the car to work out what exactly I had parted cash for and what I am looking at going forward...

- Upper rear bushes looser than a whores drawers

- Front rear bushes shot to pieces

- OSR Upper Ball joint badly worn

- OSR caliper Binding

- Rear discs badly scored, pads shot

- Front discs ok, pads shot

- Brake fluid in poor condition

- Some mild corrosion on the sills

- Power steering leak (could be a boot, a seal or worse, still checking)

- Battery cells not all working

- Exhaust rattling against under body

- Aux belt frayed badly

- Cambelt change unknown, looks OK, but to be sure...

- Various oil leaks

- Some poor wiring faults near the gearbox

- 3 tyres poorly pressured and both rears quite severely worn

Personally I planned on changing all the bushes, discs, pads, fluids, cambelt and tyres for the track anyway, but it goes to show that even with the best intentions a car can turn into a money trap straight away - or spit you off the road because the rear is seriously loose...

So, any good suggestions on brake parts for track work? track tyres that suit the Supra?

As things progress I will update this with pics, its going to be a long journey!

Welcome to the growing list of people who use their Supra's for tracking Its nice that you are not just interested in drifting, it seems that's all people think these cars are good for, either going in a straight line on a drag strip or drifting around bends all day.

There are a number of us now who like circuit work so there is plenty of advice/knowledge even from traders (Whifbitz used to race the Supra in Time Attack and Euro Saloons) take lots of advice from the "Nums" you will soon know who they are put it this way, why the hell are they not racing drivers for a living I will never know.

As with anything you will only be as good and reliable as the weakest/most worn part on the car.

Therefore looking at changing the bushes, sorting the brakes, making sure there are no leaks, getting descent rubber etc is a great start, its amazing that something as small as a basic rubber seal can put you out for the entire day!

When it comes to bushes, there seems to be a divided opinion on them.

Some will say that changing to poly bushes is the way to go, others will say stick with OEM and replace the entire Arm.

Of which you need to look at your budget on it and make the decision yourself, poly bushes are cheap but a massive PITA to fit, replacing the arms with new OEM or something upgraded like Ikeya is ££££'s. In my view if you have knackered bushes and cant afford to replace with new Arms etc then poly is the next best thing, they WILL be hundreds of times better than a knackered bush.

I have had my last (road) supra's bushes replaced with poly and it was an amazing difference, however with my track car I will be using Ikeya Formula or Marcs Engineering arms with solid bushes.

When it comes to brakes, again a bit of a divided opinion, more based on pedal feel rather than anything else.

Jspec brakes are usually passed off as rubbish even on the road (I don't know I have never used them) so I will go with the masses and say if you have them, nothing wrong with using them on track just use descent fluid and descent pads but expect them to fade.

The general consensus is to use the UK spec brake calipers and discs, along with descent pads, braided lines and descent fluid. They do certainly hold up well when on track (ask the Nums brothers) however i find the feel of the UK brakes to be particularity distant.

Of course you can go for a Big brake kit... there is a whole massive thread on this on the forum, I suggest you trawl through it and make your own decision if you come to wanting a big brake kit.

Still kinda talking about braking... tyres.. again your brakes are only going to work as hard as your tyres have grip and therefore using descent rubber will also let you go around corners quicker, power down earlier, decrease brake distance which will mean you will be quicker around a track. I use R888's on mine and they are fantastic, Toyo have just announced though that they are EOL'ing the R888 and releasing the R888R which will be the replacement (different design) other people use brands like Federal FZ201's which are slightly cheaper than the Toyo's but still offer some descent adhesion on the black stuff. Of course there are track tyres from Michelin etc etc. but they are very very expensive. If you cant afford a dedicated track tyre then get the best tyre you can afford... after all its this and only this that keeps you on the road.

I would recommend you the folllowing:

Get a full set of SuperPro Poly Bushes and rework the whole suspension arms with them.

Upgrade to the EU/UK Brake Setup with uprated Brake pads and OEM Rotors.

Get Semis Slick Tyres like Toyo R888, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup etc.

Full Service on the engine and change the gaskets.

So are people still thinking this car was a "bargain" and "too cheap"?

Hope it doesn't sting you too much to get everything sorted.

Best of luck with the project, nothing beats driving it in anger. Once everything is fixed you'll be amazed at how fast it can corner, and the speed you can carry through the bends.

Oops, refreshed the page too soon and got a double post.

Welcome mate, looks like a good base car.

Thanks for all the replies guys, especially ManwithSupra - thats a lot of good info to digest, and the whiffbitz website is open almost continually on my browser!

I've been lurking for a while before taking the plunge, so I have seen some of the discussions about bushes/arms, and I am going to weight up the difference between the costs or doing all the arms, or going down the polybush route with their black series. I've still got a bit of reading to do, but I see this as a long term investment in my development as a driver, so I expect there to be a bit of trial and error in the process.

Tyres have never been something I have skimped on, I ran Eagle F1s on the the S4 and Vredesdens on my cabby (ongoing resto project and now daily driver), I don't skim on cars full stop, so although it may take a little bit of time, I will go about things the right way even if it takes longer...

If anyone is curious, this is my cabriolet

This was my S4

I am looking forward to getting this project underway... just gotta get some purchases out the way now

Is it going to be a dedicated track car, or simply your daily which will see the odd track day?

I started my project with a very similar base car back in 2008 and despite being pretty much completely hacked to bits and thrown back together over the years it is still very much a work in progress.

It may even be slightly faster!

Best of luck with the build, best advice I can give you is to start with a good car, take care of all the problems first and build from there. Have a good read of this thread...

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?248972-forum-owned-track-supras-register-and-chat-thread&highlight=register

...as well as the project treads for ManwithSupra's beast, Paul Whiffin's car & SteveL's car for some serious inspiration & ideas.

My own project is doing its level best to be even considered in the same company as the above but with a focused effort on keeping the costs down so is nowhere near as spectacular/fast/nice/cool.

This was my list of changes between buying the car and its first outing a year later...

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?194284-Wish-me-luck!

it is still very much a work in progress.

 

I dont think we will ever finish fettling with our cars teehehee (wife has just fainted.. God bless her she thought the seq gearbox was the last thing)

I dont think we will ever finish fettling with our cars teehehee (wife has just fainted.. God bless her she thought the seq gearbox was the last thing)

Tell her you've bought her a whole new outfit and will be taking her somewhere exciting!

Then produce something made entirely of latex and tell her she'll be standing in front of the car at every round of the time attack series.

If she doesn't leave you after that little development I would hazard a guess that you can do what you feckin' want to the car in complete confidence!

Tell her you've bought her a whole new outfit and will be taking her somewhere exciting!

 

Then produce something made entirely of latex and tell her she'll be standing in front of the car at every round of the time attack series.

 

If she doesn't leave you after that little development I would hazard a guess that you can do what you feckin' want to the car in complete confidence!

Ha Knowing my Missus she would be well game for doing that anyway, she has already joked about it. I am not sure if thats good or not lol.

She likes doing promotional car work

FFS!!!

Now you are just showing off!

Well done that man.

FFS!!!

 

Now you are just showing off!

 

Well done that man.

Ha nah she loves cars, I am pulling your leg about her fainting, she is actually been quite supportive about it (although I am using wife numbers which we all know is only 20% of the actual value)

Got me thinking actually she knows a number of Girls who do grid work, promotions etc I wonder if I should have a few in body Lycra With MKIVSupra.net on their buffers and behinds.

I will be walking down the pit line like James Hunt..

Sorry 4163cc went off subject there..

Is it going to be a dedicated track car, or simply your daily which will see the odd track day?

 

Best of luck with the build, best advice I can give you is to start with a good car, take care of all the problems first and build from there. Have a good read of this thread...

 

This was my list of changes between buying the car and its first outing a year later...

 

I agree totally with the sentiment of getting it into a good car territory first, so thats what I plan on doing, i.e., all the work above and put her on a weighbridge to see where I am at. I will be using her intermittently at various intervals over the next few months so I can learn more about how the car drives, things I need to look at, etc... My plan is to undertake a cat driving day at Milbrook with the car having had brakes, bushes and tyres looked at, then maybe a few track days over the summer, with a view to doing all the major work, stripping and improvements between Sept-Apr 2015/2016

So quite a way off, but I am realistic about timescales, I want to do it properly and in stages rather than go all out and not learn where I made the difference, be it in driving ability or car changes. I am also aware that dynamics of the car will change as weight comes out, and some things will need to be compensated for (batter placement, etc...)

Overall, initial work will be during the first half with serious progress after that, well, unless I crash her and kill off the project before I get that far! ha ha

Thanks for the list of changes, most helpful - any more pics of her? I see that thread stopped in 09

Thanks for the list of changes, most helpful - any more pics of her? I see that thread stopped in 09

None that are particularly flattering mate!

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=3240

There'd be some more dotted all over the forum but 90% of threads with Mondello (my local track) in the title would be by me so have a bit of a search if you want to.

In regards to your brakes, another addition that i find is highly rated is a master cylinder stopper. Here is a reasonably priced one http://www.provokedesigns.co.uk/

Good luck with the project

if you have UK supra brakes a lot can be achieved with just the standard setup, don't have to go all out on big brake kit or expensive components.

Ive been out in a stock UK that have porterfield race pads and stock toyota disks all round. RBF660 brake fluid and it was simply amazing. On par with the feeling of my 280mm KAD kit i would say.

My brothers 350Z also has the stock brembo setup and then above pads/fluid and its amazing - only thing that needs is a bias valve as they are too far forward IMO

Thing is, looking at the prices on the whiffbitz site, going for a UK spec upgrade from Jap isn't much cheaper than going for a K-Sport kit, is the UK setup much better than Jap spec? or would I initially be able to update my pads, discs, hoses and fluid until I start pushing my limits, then go for a bigger kit 12 months down the line when weight starts coming out of the car and other bits start adding speed?

Also, bush kits, what do people recommend? there seems to be a lot of suppliers out there, and for the full car its looking at a £500+ job on parts alone!

I had Chris Wilson Race pads (£300+) and decent fluid (£30?) and did Brands and Llandow track days just fine on decent but not track day specific tyres.

You could look for used but not knackered wishbones but they may take some time to gather and/or not be much better than yours? Potentially the least expensive/hassle option.

IMO your recent experience of 4 wheel drive stability and the tyres the supra had on (low tread - what brand?) will have had the most effect on your recent spin.

I ran my NA auto on track a few times, cheapo Falken road tyres, decent pads, disks and servicing should be all you need for a good laugh

If you have Jspec brakes then upgrade to UK if you plan to go big brake kit later would be pointless I agree. Could service the sliders on the back, decent fluid and pads yes and that will allow you to get out on the track without the fear of the brakes failing on you.

You will quickly reach the limit of them though.

If you have Jspec brakes then upgrade to UK if you plan to go big brake kit later would be pointless I agree. Could service the sliders on the back, decent fluid and pads yes and that will allow you to get out on the track without the fear of the brakes failing on you.

 

You will quickly reach the limit of them though.

Perhaps if you go with semi track day tyres. If you stick to normal road rubber then in my experience you'll need to watch these overheating before the brakes fade. The NA's are a bit lighter and also don't reach each braking point with quite so much speed as a tt.

For the OP I'd just try and get the car handling nicely on the road, then a first track session just needs brakes in good order with good pads/fluid. After that your experience on track should tell you where to spend more money.

Good used UK brake sets come up in the sales section quite often mate, I can count the number of new parts I've fitted to the car on one (mangled) hand.

Good used "top shelf" parts are often a wiser bet than new "budget" brands.

And with the number of high-end builds that are being parted out lately you'd be well advised to have a good root through the classifieds before buying new.

I run UK brake calipers, DBA disks, Hawk race pads, 5.1 brake fluid & braided lines on my car and to be honest I don't see a change to bigger brakes happening anytime soon. I'm still exploring their limits in fact.

Such great angles of view guys, appreciate the input, classifieds are a great tip as well