hi newbie none supra owner but toyota owner

thought id come and have a looksee over here and see what all the talk of supras is all about but after reading a forsale thread im not so sure

Originally Posted by Evil_Nuts

my mate at work has a GT4 running standard boost, with only a de cat and a graph for 286 bhp, still has the restrictor....just gotta persuade to missus to get one!

oh and it doesnt get near the Supra, only when setting off, but thats to be expected!

What restrictor? The 3SGTE doesn't need/have one. With the decat pipe in the turbo will breathe far easier. Stock boost is around 0.7, with the decat you will see 0.8. A GT4 won't make 287hp at standard boost, its physically impossible on a stock turbo. It is exactly the same engine as in the MR2 only using a charge cooler rather than intercooler. I maxed my MR2 out at 284hp, that was at 1.0bar(Rev2 ceramic turbine) and running slightly more agressive cams.

Originally Posted by gt4tosupra

Exactly, so 337 bhp with all these mods is bang on!

No it isn't. Apparently both cars were done on the same shootout dreaming dyno.

Do you have the WHP figure? That would shine some light on the matter.

Decat

Replacing one or both CATs in the exhaust with straight through pipes.

seems your none believers in the cars im passionate about and dont know the difference between a rev1 rev2 or rev3 3sgte let alone the rev4 3sgte engines that are in the gt4 generations seeing as the mr2 turbo that everyone knows and relates to is a rev2 engine

will stick around a bit and see if its the general concensious but????

was hoping to ask about the old skool type 3.0 turbo as ive been looking at them quite a bit recently as in pro's cons and things to look out for

anyway hi all

ohhh and a.....

Ibtl

Good evening

Nice post mon!

hi and thanks for the welcome

sorry if my initial reaction seems off but wasnt really expecting to see someone being baited about power figures and especially about a car that i own

anyway my main reason for joining is i wouldnt mind a bit of input on the old style 3.0 turbo's good points bad points things to look out for etc

i know full well its an old car and there will be great good and absolute dog examples but with not knowing the cars that well it would be nice to have some input from those that do its either that or im off over to the mr2 for the rear wheel drive fun and stick to an engine i know pretty well by now

my current cars are 2 st165's one is jdm spec running completely stock engine turbo and cc system but with upped boost to 0.8bar and mongoose exhaust then its running st205 front and rear calipers and 185 kyb 4way adjustable suspension

my 2nd 165 is in 2 bits a body and engine as im going to be installing the st205 wrc engine fmic stock but reworked ct20 turbo full 185 drive shafts and swing arms plus steering rack as i intend to widen the track and full st205 rear setup so all in all i should see aprox 2-3" wider front track and aprox 4" wider track at the rear

my last car and first gt4 is the st205 running in the Toyota Sprint Series currently on tein coilovers hybrid ct26 linkg3 ecu fmic (estimated at 340bhp due to doing 12sec quarters with a full tank of fuel )

so any input welcome many thanks

old style? mk3 you mean??

well as in this style shown in the advert

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1989-TOYOTA-SUPRA-3-0-TURBO-/220673410964?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3361290794

i have my eye on a white one that i spotted a while back but with not knowing an awful lot about the 3.0 straight 6 engine its strengths weaknesses drivetrain issues things that bang rattle and fall off or those sneaky areas that rust through that you just dont know till you pull off a panel i thought some of you could point the main issues out

well as in this style shown in the advert

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1989-TOYOTA-SUPRA-3-0-TURBO-/220673410964?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3361290794

 

i have my eye on a white one that i spotted a while back but with not knowing an awful lot about the 3.0 straight 6 engine its strengths weaknesses drivetrain issues things that bang rattle and fall off or those sneaky areas that rust through that you just dont know till you pull off a panel i thought some of you could point the main issues out

ummmh, got no idea tbh, sorry

Hello and welcome to the forum . Rich.

Hi matey firstly welcome:grouphug:

Any pics of your cars ?? I owned 2 mk3 in my time but I'm no mechanic but know a bit. In a nutshell if your getting a UK one the two biggest worries are the dreaded rot around the arches and joints and underseals etc but the worst failing is the head gasket are notoriously known for failing. The leather interior is shite to say the least I have never seen an unworn drivers seat in my life but that one in the listing looks good the cloth ones are very durable but very 80's look lol I owned a UK and an import tbh I would look for an import all day long unless if the UK has great history and very good condition. Apart from them the cars are really bulletproof.

Just read the advert and the price has been reduced because surprise surprise the head needs doing and at 1500 that's not cheap !!

Anyway hope that helps they are good fun but just get a MK IV and enjoy

Ade

Thats a mkiii Supra (1987 to 1992) and there are quite a few owners on here who have had those, but for technical info you might find more current details on http://www.mkiiisupra.net. Being a car thats over 20 years old now I dont know what other great problems they have encountered, but I know head gaskets were a major problem on those in the past due to slightly borderline cooling.

Good luck with your search.

Thats a mkiii Supra

 

Good luck with your search.

Opps I meant Mkiii not mk3 I don't want to start another thread explaining the errors of my way :d

sorry, didnt mean to correct you. MK3 is fine too. I have just always used mkiv and so the mkiii chaps created mkiiisupra.net based on that.

 

Just read the advert and the price has been reduced because surprise surprise the head needs doing and at 1500 that's not cheap !!

Anyway hope that helps they are good fun but just get a MK IV and enjoy

 

Ade

TBH, the R154 manual boxes in these cars are starting to fetch almost £1k, so even with a faulty head, you'd still generate at least £2k by breaking it. As with 6 speed NA mkivs, the value of manual MK3s will be determined by the gearbox. I wouldn't be suprised if these boxes started fetching nearer £2k in the near future, due to the price and rarity of the Getrag boxes.

sorry, didnt mean to correct you. MK3 is fine too. I have just always used mkiv and so the mkiii chaps created mkiiisupra.net based on that.

Ha ha don't worry I just remember the thread months ago and how heated it got over mk4 or mkiv lol and I'm not starting a new one.

:d:d:d

Seriously, you and your mates joined because you got your knickers in a twist over a disputed power figure in a GT-Four for sale thread?

The errors you note were corrected in the thread but sadly a bunch of dreamers were still clinging to lala land power figures of 340bhp and 350bhp on a car running 1.1 bar boost WITH THE STOCK CAT still in place. You know, the really restrictive one that's a huge blockage straight after the turbo? So just to recap, that's a 90bhp gain from a 2.0 litre turbo for a little extra boost with an off the shelf mapped blitz access ECU with NO DECAT.

Just to be sure - for some reason that's a tad ambitous for me but sadly dyno numbers are gospel as a number of ST205 GT-Four owners got similar pleasingly high figures on the same dyno on the same day (so I'm told!) so I MUST be wrong.

Now that's as far as your trolling gets with me because, lets face it, that's the only reason you're really here. Now we're not on a for sale thread you can all play in this thread but understand you're at risk of administrative action given joining for such reasons contravenes our club rules.

Welcome to the club and play nice!

Just to add my input, I've owned an ST185, MR2 Turbo (Rev 2), MR2 Turbo (Rev 3 [i had it chargecooled] - which then went supercharged V6, then finally turbo'd V6) and finally the Supra. I know the cars.

The ST185 = MR2 Rev 1/2 (220ps)

The ST205 = MR2 Rev 3/4/5 (241ps)

There is simply no way a CT20b turbo can flow 350bhp, otherwise nobody would upgrade to GT28/GT30 turbos.

Welcome to the club though! And please don't think we're jumping on Celica owners, or any non-Supra owners. We try to keep people from posting unrealistic figures for any car - including the Supra.

need to sell my GT4 and get back into supra ownership.

Hmmmm, so you come here, slate a load of members after not reading the thread properly, then say you want info on the MKIII, erm.....you do realise this is the MKIV forum don't you?

I think that bit covers the engine differences

I'm a member on IMOC, have been for many years now. Those cars use the same engine as the GT4, well that is my understanding of it all. The only difference I recall is that the GT4 didn't get the older 3SGTe that is in the Rev1 and Rev2 MR2's, they got the later Rev3/4/5 engine with the inclusion of a chargecooler and a slightly different manifold IIRC. Differences between the original 3SGTE in the Rev1/2 engines being the turbo was a little smaller with a steel turbine rather than the ceramic (much the same as the difference between UK spec and JSpec Supras). I think there are some slight engine differences between the Rev1/2 and the Rev3/4/5 but I'm almost positive the engine remained the same througout the Rev3/4/5 reign. Johnny etc will know better than me on this part though.

Power Figures on Dynos

No matter what club you are a part of there are dreamers who just won't listen to reason. If you took your car to every dyno on the country your power figures would vary WILDLY, I'm not just talking 5 or 10hp, i'm talking +/-50hp (when around the 350hp mark anyway). There has been thread after thread after thread on here with people getting xxxbhp whereas other people with the same spec get yyybhp. The simple reason is the different calculations used to work out the FWHP (A dreamland figure unless it has been on a benchy dyno). In my opinion FWHP can only be used as a comparison with similar cars that get measured on the same dyno. WHP is a FAR more accurate figure to be working with as it isn't a calculation, it is a measurement. Again, this figure can't be taken as gospel as some dyno's measure higher than others....it's just the way it is, but I wouldn't expect to see the same wild differences as FWHP figures.

If you have ever been to a dyno shootout you will probably see yourself gain 30-40hp on the same dyno. I'm not really sure why the guys do this, but it has been documented in the past.

We're on a Supra forum so I'll talk Supras for a bit. If you want to determin how much power your car has on here, most people mention SRD. This isn't because those figures are exact, it is because there have been many many Supra's measured at SRD and the figures given there are realistic. I think the record for a BPU supra with stand alone Engine Management is around 435FWHP. I think the record for a BPU Supra with standard engine management is around the 430FWHP mark..... so no REAL top end gains going with stand alone ECU. This isn't to say the GT4 isn't different, but I would be amazed if a simple remap at the same 1.1 boost level made 30hp. Has this been documented?

Turbo limitations

Now, there are people on here who claim to be pushing up to 500hp from a BPU Supra. These people get held in the same regard as the previously mentioned GT4 advert did. It just isn't possible as you "cannae change the laws o physics capt'n". The stock turbo's in the Supra simply cannot flow enough air at safe boost limits to mix with the fuel required to make 500hp. The maximum at SRD is 435 (which is why we quite 400-430 as the BPU power). The same goes with the 3SGTE engine. The CT20b just cannot flow enough air to make 350hp (or 330 for that matter), never mind 350hp at 1.1bar with the 1st CAT in. It just cannot happen. The only way that figure would be achievable would be if there was a larger turbo in the car. On IMOC there are many different HP claims, some are expected, some are modist and some are just ridiculous. I think the highest HP I have seen on a CT20b engine, that I believe to be true, was around 320hp. This car only ran 320 for the dyno run, as I think the person was pushing around 1.2bar which was a bit much, so it was cut back to 1.1bar.

Stock GT4 question, BPU MR2 info

Now, I think I read in that previous thread that stock boost on a GT4 is 1.0bar. If that is the case then why is the quoted power figure of a stock GT4 239bhp (Exactly the same as the rev3/4/5 MR2)? The reason I ask is that the MR2 will make that power at around 0.7bar of boost. Seems like some misinformation going around there.

Taking that as gospel the GT4 goes from 240HP to 340HP with a difference of 0.1bar of boost on the same turbo. Ask anyone who knows anything about cars if that is possible.

The MR2 gains approx 10hp per 0.1bar of boost. Simply upping the boost and removing the cat in a rev3 gains just under 50hp. Put in a decent exhaust, a nice air filter, some good plugs etc gains you the other 10 required to see around 300hp (The known safe figure for Rev3+ MR2s).

As I have said, the record on a BPU MR2 is around 320hp IIRC. If there is a valid reason why a GT4, with exactly the same engine, manages to push out 20hp more on less boost then I can't see it.

The simple answer for me is that the dyno gave a high reading, taking other cars to the same dyno will give the same inflated figures, hence inflating the ego and keeping the punters happy. That's fine for the pub, when it comes to selling an enthusiasts car on an enthusiasts forum it's best just to quote real world figures or just admit that yes they might be inflated, but that is what the RR printout says..... job done.

never knew the celica st205 ran 1 bar boost stock [sHOCK][/sHOCK]

240 hp for near 4 litre displacement is shocking for a 16 valve FI 4 potter .Was it or Is It not the case that Toyota 1j, 2j ,3s etc engines were pretty dandy, seems not the case. Especially when one can see 320 hp from 2 ltr NA engine for a price.

never knew the celica st205 ran 1 bar boost stock [sHOCK][/sHOCK]

IMO it doesn't but there seems to be a lot of inaccuracies flying around with regards to the ST205