View Full Version : MINES ECU and 100 Octane
OK some of you will no doubt disagree here, but i have been looking into the whole MINES ECU and tuning / mapping thing for 4-5 weeks now and have come up with some VERY interesting information that some of you will like / not like.
A friend of mine up here who imports Japanese Cars to the UK put me in touch with one of his friends who is based down south. This guy down south is himself Japanese and is now based over here permanently for the time being, and is the Main sole Official UK agent for MINES VX ROM ECU and Product range of equipment as well as other tuning parts. He is a very very intelligent guy and has been in this line for what i believe is well over a decade and knows "whats what and whats not" in the world of Japanese Cars.
I have been in discussion with him for a few weeks now regarding the MINES ECU that came fitted to my J-Spec when i got it, and he is currently awaiting information on the ecu to be faxed / e-mailed back from Japan so that we can start getting somewhere with this relatively "unknown" ECU to us here in the UK.
He asked me for a list of my modifications and said that it shouldnt be a problem with the re-mapping etc, and we are now just awaiting word back from Japan to find out the exact specification of this certain ECU.
More importantly, i asked him about having it re-mapped to run on UK fuel without the need for addition of an Octane Booster etc. I was surprised at his reply !......
He stated in no uncertain terms that there is NO NEED to have 95% of Japanese Origin ECU's remapped to run on 97/98 RON fuel because the fuel in Japan to this day, is the SAME quality and Octane Rating as UK fuel if not WORSE !
He stated that from his time spent tuning cars in Japan, that 95% of the road cars are mapped to approx. 97 RON and when you drive into a petrol forecourt in Japan, 7 out of the 8 pumps will be the equivalent of out Super Unleaded here, and nothing stronger, while the other two will be maybe 99/100 octane, but this is in like 10-15% of the fuel stations only.
He is adamant that the cars over there are set to run on the same fuel as the UK and that this whole "102 RON in Japan" etc is a myth which has escalated into something far too big. A few guys here have had bad experiences where they have purchased highly tuned cars from Japan and have HAD to be mapped to over 100 Octane, such as 450BHP Skylines / Supra's etc. And because they ran on UK Unleaded without knowing the cars ultimately went bang, and the owners blamed crappy RON rated UK Fuel. This has escalated into something which now strikes fear into 99% of Japanese Import Owners unnecessarily.
He asked me to mention this to anyone who had any doubts, and IMHO with him coming from Japan himself, and basically knowing more than any of us will EVER know i would tend to believe him.
I am now listening to this guy and this guy ONLY on whats the proper way to go about avoiding a "Big Bang" as he knows everything worth knowing, and if he doesnt he gives 110% effort to find it out for me.
I know a lot of you will doubt what i have said here, but like i said he is the SOLE official agent for MINES product range, and is trying to set himself up here in order to get the product a better reputation outside of Japan, and he basically doesnt say something he doesnt think is going to help.
So what does everybody think ?
I for one think that people like this are few and far between over here, and we need more Japanese to be helping us out like this with our "unknown" MINES modifications to an extent.
Michael
Shin Inoue from Pro Spec-ms???
It would be interesting to find out if they use the same RON (octane rating system) in Japan as we do here in the UK.
I know that the guys in the US don't, but hey nobodies suprised at that now are they!!!!
Iain Beagley
21-02-02, 16:13
When i bought my Jap TT I was told to use super unleaded or Shell Optimax. But a garage tell me I can use nomal unleaded.
The car is standard so from what your sources say I should be able to use normal unleaded. Or have I missread the notes. ???
Awaiting reply to save some pennies on my fuel bill.
You should be able to, but if you want to really protect your engine, use the best stuff you can get! Fuel is cheaper than an engine. Plus, it should give you a little more power as well :)
Quote: from Iain Beagley on 4:13 pm on Feb. 21, 2002[br]When i bought my Jap TT I was told to use super unleaded or Shell Optimax. But a garage tell me I can use nomal unleaded.
The car is standard so from what your sources say I should be able to use normal unleaded. Or have I missread the notes. ???
Awaiting reply to save some pennies on my fuel bill.
Your garage just doesn't understand ;)
Buy SUL or cheaper Optimax - enjoy your car more, drive it harder knowing its protected.
If you use UL it will only ertard your ignition and make the car slower/duller - 3p a litre extra is about £2 per tank isn't it not alot really??
3p a litre cheaper for Normal UL ???
Damn we are getting ripped off here in Scotland !! typical ! :o(
Your friend is correct to some extent but he may well not be aware (as are most people in this Country) that the RON rating in fuel is only part of the story, we in this Country use additives in our fuel that are entirley different to those used in Japan and it is these that make the difference, the chemical stuff is too involved for this sort of forum but I've written extensively on the Soarer site about this 'problem' also the RON rating is 'interpretive' it is a 'movable feast' I can easily make something that is 'really' 93oct pass the test for 98oct, it is simple as the method for testing has to be simple for forecourt testing and that is the down fall.
Precis'd you have to be selective about where you buy your fuel;
1. never buy from a Supermarket....ever.
2. never buy BP....ever
3. buy TOTAL, JET or ELF, ELF in particular is very good for J-spec cars, if you have not used ELF as a regular tankfull then you will need 2 tankfullls to get the benefit, the fuel is very tightly specced and is probably the closest to the additive spec of the fuels in Japan, I use this stuff as often as possible and accept only those 3 in my tank and I KNOW I'm doing the right thing.
How often do you see an ELF petrol station on your daily travels though ? :o(
I have a Total station at the top of my road, but they don't do SUL. Are you saying that their regular UL is OK? Is there a reason I shouldn't use lead free 4*? After all, it doesn't have any lead in it.
How about Optimax? Is it good or not? Better than ELF?
Oh, and there is a octane booster called Nitrous Fuel, that is supposed to increse octane by +6, has anyone used it?
Thanks
Hmmm . . I've just switched to BP because it saves me going 6 miles out of my way to fill up, but I've noticed the car isn't running as well on it. I'll give another tankful, and then switch back to Optimax and see if there is an improvement.
I'd be interested to know why you recommend those particular brands though, and why BP in particular is so crappy!
IMO BP SUL seems to work really nicely, but its mega expensive round this way
NONE of you should be using SUPER un-leaded it will slowly kill your cars!!!!
It screws the lube oil and damages the alloys in the piston rings and in a Turbo both of those are important.
Premium un-leaded (the cheaper of the 2) is what you should run, the SuL contains Benzene that is why if you run it for any time you must 'reset' the ECU with the 30A fuse removal trick! The principle is that the SuL 'fools' the standard engine into knocking in a less obtrusive manner, it may and does fool most simple knock sensors but the dual knock sensor system in our cars is not fooled by this deceit and the ECU retards your ignition to suit just as if it were crap fuel! That is why you have to pull that fuse to get the power back!
Optimax contains a different form of benzene carrier (its 'vector' so to speak) and is very good, but it cost loads and is not really any better than the ELF PuL!, on a dyno no difference is found and the throttle response is 'just' a little better.
Well, since there is no ELF petrol stations around, Optimax will have to do :)
Mycroft, how about octane boosters?
Thanks
Toluene, simple as that, get a clearance card buy 205ltrs of Toluene add 5/6ltrs to each tank full run then with 105oct 5/6ltrs costs about £4.00 in those quants so you ain't paying very much atall for the pleasure of high octane.
ONE BIG DRAWBACK
Where the hell do you keep 45 gallons of a very volitile material?
Dig a hole in your garden big enough to take a 300ltr tank , get a tank made and bury the bloody thing, that's how!
I've already been arranging some toluene for use in a couple of weeks time...
Though bought the kit haven't got a supplier yet!!
Would you recommend getting those metal "jerry" cans to transport it?
Do they normally supply it in 50L drums??
Also what does "Race Fuel" contain?
Hi all,
What about UK TT's, what's the situation with fuel then? Do we suffer the same restrictions as the j-Spec guys, (I assume not) or can I use Premium or Super Unleaded without a worry? I don't purchase Supermarket fuel anyway so that's not a worry, but currently I'm using Shell Unleaded (not Optimax). Any advice would be great.
Thanks
Quote: from Darren S on 12:28 pm on Feb. 22, 2002[br]Hi all,
What about UK TT's, what's the situation with fuel then? Do we suffer the same restrictions as the j-Spec guys, (I assume not) or can I use Premium or Super Unleaded without a worry? I don't purchase Supermarket fuel anyway so that's not a worry, but currently I'm using Shell Unleaded (not Optimax). Any advice would be great.
Thanks
Hi...
The UK Spec Supra is designed to use 95 RON fuel and as a unmodified car will run quite happily. In the event that the car is modified or you want a bit of extra performance use Super unleaded.
regards....
I repeat, never use Super un-Leaded, benzene in the higher concetrates effects your oil, we run Multivalved multi turbo'd high revving, highly stressed motors, do you really want to have benzene diluted oil lubricating it? Benzene actively breaks down long chain molecules it is just brilliant at screwing your very expensive Synthetic oil!!
SuL is for older motors to help with emissions etc in the 'change over period, it is simply LRP benzene covering the 'shortfall'.
This applies to ALL Toyotas made from the lat 80's on.
so let me get this right, are you saying we should NOT be using super unleaded in our imports, or even in the UK cars?
JB
Or any new cars at all? Just ones from the pre-unleaded ('change over period') era? I thought that would be LRP?!
You understand that this may get a sceptical reaction :) We should try not to be personal, but instead work out the validity of the 'SUL is only for older cars and will ruin your oil' proposition. Mycroft - your sources and data please...?
Everyone else uses it and the companies that make it say it's brill, and the Government hasn't highlighted any potential dangers - all of which count *against* SUL quite a bit... :biggrin:
-Ian
Benzene slows the flame front of the explosion, effectively the 'explosion' lasts slightly longer (were talking fractions of a fraction of a second here) it is also 'colder (relative term) now as a result there is less 'reaction' in the chamber and not all the bBenzene is burnt along with 2 other aromatics one being MTBE the other a Toluene derivitive, the MTBE can make a very mild Nerve gas (causing a sympton in the sufferer similar to Asthma) in the catalytic converter, the Toluene gives that slightly 'parafinny' smell in the exhaust (if you drive around in a Supra using SuL then go have a sniff) it is 'mostly harmless'. Toluene is not anywhere near as 'reactive' to oil as Benzene is.
That slower flame front is the 'power lift' you feel under foot, the piston is under pressure for slightly longer in the initial moment of the stroke, you would have the same effect by enriching the mixture of the PuL by just 1% (cheaper too, plus better take up of the throttle as a bonus)
You must be sceptical, but SuL was nearly banned 8 years ago by the British Government, only fierce lobbying from the Pet/Chem industry 'saved' it. it is a great money spinner for them it costs 0.06p per litre to make Pul into Sul, Optimax costs 0.68p more to make, I'm old enough to remember Shell last 'super-fuel' and the litigation here and especially in the States cost them dear, they have made a better fist of it this time using 'encapsulted' Benzene which is much smarter than the stuff in SuL.
No petrol Company has EVER extolled the virtues of SuL over PuL as they have about Optimax, you know why don't you, it just don't stand up to scrutiny, wouldn't Shell have screamed from the top of every station the same message they have bandied about regarding Optimax you know they would, but only Optimax stands up to scrutiny.
I can also recall the old Admans slogan 'Put SPECIAL or SUPER on it and the donkeys will all follow the Carrot' You have not been sceptical enough in my opinion, repeat a lie often enough and getting anyone to see the truth is just not possible.
In this World you all have choices, everything is your choice, you can use whatever fuel you like, it is not my mission to convert you, just be aware of an alternative view.
I think I would rather have oil contamination than detonation which is what my car would certainly experience if I used 95ron fuel.
Isnt SUL readily available throughout the whole of Europe and surely if it was a problematic fuel the oil companies would have been sued many times over by now.
JB
OK, I can see what you're getting at here, but I'm sceptical that enough benzene contamination of oil can occur in 3000-4000 (ie between changes) miles to be a problem.
Very interesting thread though, so keep it up!
I was relieved to hear you say that Optimax is good stuff though. I just changed back to it after convincing myself that my car was running OK on BP SUL, and even pulling out of the garage forecourt it made a HUGE difference - like someone has silk-coated my engine or something! Plus there was a horrible lumpiness as I went through 3000rpm on part throttle, which has totally gone now, it howls up to peak power without missing a beat. My car seems to really love it!
Branners, you may indded need to use Optimax all the time (I don't know the spec of your car) but SuL is not good the Benzene broken oil forms sludge, and I think you have ALL heard about and read about what that does to our cars, the other MAJOR contributor is mixing your Oils (Manufacturers).
How about looking at it this way, can you name a single Car Manufacturer in Europe(where, as you say, the stuff is freely available) that specifies the use of SuL and not PuL.
It is a simple get out for all concerned, 'you used fuel different to that specified by the Manufacturer and as a result shortened the life of its engine' in other words 'tough shit sonny'
You can buy a form of Litmus' for testing benzene in your oil, there is a trace shown after 3 miles, and a serious contamination after 1000miles, so Adam I wouldn't rely on incredulity as a good arguement, things can go incredibly badly when you do that.
Mycroft, This is getting very interesting, but I don’t have a degree in chemical engineering, I stopped chemistry when my interest in explosives caused temporary deafness years ago:o
As regards Benzene actively breaking down long chain molecules and reducing the lubrication properties of Synthetic oil, you say this can occur very rapidly. In a PuL only car the Benzene is absent, but oil will still break down. In terms of miles, how long before a PuL only engine's oil reaches the same state as oil run for, say 1000 miles in a SuL only car? Or is the break down totally different and comparisons can't be made?
Given that cost is not an issue which fuel would you suggest out of TOTAL, JET, ELF and OPTIMAX will cause least damage to our engine oil assuming we use a fully synthetic oil.
Could you post links to some of your posts Soarer site for those of us who would like to read about this subject.
Thanks for your contribution.
Quote: from Mycroft on 12:49 am on Feb. 23, 2002[br]You can buy a form of Litmus' for testing benzene in your oil, there is a trace shown after 3 miles, and a serious contamination after 1000miles, so Adam I wouldn't rely on incredulity as a good arguement, things can go incredibly badly when you do that.
Point taken :biggrin:
BMW specifically state that you shoudl use SUL for their M series cars, it's in the M3 handbook.
Very interesting thread this.
Cheers,
Phil
PuL cars will have some Benzene contamination (even 4* had Benzene in it) it is just the quantities that were are dealing with here, too much and the whole thing falls apart.
The break down is a mildly catalytic reaction, by this I mean that it happens in Very hot engines, Turbo'd cars are a perfect example of a Very hot engine. The reaction breakdown is slow at low temps but if there is enough of the stuff then it will start by solvent action. The reactive breakdown is more fundemental as it takes out of suspension some of the more 'sticky' parts of the oil, the ones that assist in the oil adhering to the surface using Ionic attraction. when these fall out they form sludge and then you are in the shit!
I have an ELF garage just a mile from my door and that is my favourite, the Optimax is good, but I always feel that I'm part of the unpaid 'testing program' so use it only when topping up when my ELF guy is closed, I always look to fill up with either of the other 2 if Touring.
Whilst in Cornwall recently I had to get 20ltrs of 'Supermarket sweepings' my baby hated the bloody stuff and the throttle response went all to cock!
I'd like to post some of the papers I've written on the LSOC and will send some to branners to see if they are suitable for inclusion on this site.
On the Oil front my baby has a diet of Halfords Fully Synth, nothing has touched her since I bought her, I get my old oil analysed occasionally and HFS passes the test each time, keeping a high MOL even after 6000mls in 5 weeks!
Phil, it also states that fuel should be 95RON with 98RON(PULP) as an alternative, 98(PULP) is the 'proper name' for Optimax!
Optimax is also 'Designated' as a Super Unleaded (the term Super-Dooper Un-Leaded being a little silly, but probably more in-keeping with the way things are termed by Admen)
Ok, Thanks that does make things a little clearer.
Basically low performance cars or higher performance cars driven slowly keeping the engine and oil relatively cool, slows the degrading effects of Benzene. So the fuel is not an issue. But for most of us who like to drive our turbo engines hard, the wrong fuel will kill the engine in time.
We don't have much choice of fuel locally. Shell, Q8, Total and Supermarkets.
Any one got any info on the additives in Q8 fuels.
so after all that i will carry on using elf ul ?????????????
Hi,I am just wondering if the implications (re: {rate of} oil contamination/breakdown) are the same for semi-synthetic and mineral oils. I for example use Castrol Magnatec semi-synthetic (10w-40). I use BP SUL normally, with a bottle of Millers for those 'Fast and Furious' days.
Regards,
Quote: from Mycroft on 12:49 am on Feb. 23, 2002[br]
How about looking at it this way, can you name a single Car Manufacturer in Europe(where, as you say, the stuff is freely available) that specifies the use of SuL and not PuL.
Honda UK specify 98 ron fuel for the UK Integra Type R and UK Accord Type R ( it even says so on the fuel cap of my Integra Type R) so they are by default specifying SUL (when it used to be 98 ron anyway) because PUL is only 95 ron. And it's a 1998 car so there was no Optimax at that time.
(Edited by HardHead42 at 4:27 pm on Feb. 23, 2002)
I'll say it again, more simply, 95oct and 98oct PULP (PULP = P.REMIUM U.n-L.eaded P.etrol), they are NOT (by default or intention) saying SuL YOU are making assumptions. Please re-read the spec and if you see PULP it means exactly that PULP not SULP! Phone Honda and ask their Tech. Dept. for a quote that SuL is OK, the line will go silent.....I know 'cos I asked this 3 years ago!
Benzene is not fussy at all, it will cheerfully tear apart any oil you care to give it!
Erm settle down Mycroft dude !!
Jeeeez.......
C'mon, Supe, don't have a go at Mycroft. He's being hit with question after Question here and he's tyring to answer them. He's put more info on fuel on this site than I've seen before and this has got to be useful to us all.
If he's having to repeat himself a few times to get a point across, he obviously will add a little more emphasis on the points we've missed. If we have a go at him, he'll leave the site, and I for one want people with knowledge to stay here to help us.
By the way, Mycroft, what about the use of LRP?
Agreed, i am finding all this infomation helpful and interesting, and I think it is good for all of us to know what is really being put in petrol, especially since it is what we put in our supes after all :o
It would not strike me as odd for a company to cut corners to get the desired 'effect' and if Benzene is cheaper, I am not surprised some of them use it, i would just like to know that they are!
I'm treading on toes again, sorry.
I'm trying to keep it simple and emphasise the bits that you mis-understood from the previous post or to emphasise some new piece of info you may not have had before, I had this 'problem' a little bit on the Soarer site also, in an effort to get as much info over to as many as possible the whole thing has to be simplified a bit, this means that anyone who wishes can pick holes in what I say because by necessity I use as many 'generalisations' and 'analogies' as possible.
LRP is something I have not investigated fully as I have no cause to use it and my cursory glance at the compound formula tells me at a glance that I wouldn't put it in my car.
Quote: from Brian Duff on 1:53 am on Feb. 24, 2002[br]C'mon, Supe, don't have a go at Mycroft. ^He's being hit with question after Question here and he's tyring to answer them. ^He's put more info on fuel on this site than I've seen before and this has got to be useful to us all.
If he's having to repeat himself a few times to get a point across, he obviously will add a little more emphasis on the points we've missed. ^If we have a go at him, he'll leave the site, and I for one want people with knowledge to stay here to help us.
I second that, we need people with technical knowledge on the board, I can't recall anything so detailed on the content of fuels and their impact on our engines before.
I think what Mycroft is driving at is that there are three types of fuel we're discussing:
1: 95oct premium unleaded (no benzene)
2: 98oct premium unleaded (no benzene)
3: 98oct super unleaded (benzene)
(plus Optimax which is 98.7oct IIRC)
and people are getting 2 and 3 mixed up (in their heads, not their tanks!). Would I be correct in saying that 3 has replaced 2 in the forecourts because it is cheaper to raise octane levels with added benzene than by using advanced refinement techniques? Hence our oil is suffering as a result!
Adam, yeah..but
1/. PuL (95oct) The 'cheap' stuff. (low benzene)
2/. PuL (98oct) Known as Optimax or BP Energy (High benzene but encapsulated in an Oxident to ensure perfect buning) Just to make life difficult the petrol Companies also call this a Super unleaded in some European Countires. (the ones that refused the third type listed below)
3/. SuL (97/98oct) High benzene, 2/3p ltr more expensive than PuL.
Mycroft, thanks for this info and for all the peeps who have made comments. I've just read this thread from start to finish and I must agree that these sorts of discussions are really useful, so please keep them up.
From what I have read here, I will continue to use the cheaper PUL from Shell in my UK TT or move up to Optimax when my mileage drops slightly.
Cheers guys, great input. You couldn't get this anywhere else than from a dedicated fans site.
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