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Handling - Newbie to Suspension & Geometry etc


meph137
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Hi all, I'm very new to suspension and geometry and I'm wondering if there was much I could do to improve handling on the supra on normal road conditions. The car doesn't lose grip or anything like that, and seems to get more responsive the more you push it, which seems kindof to me!

 

Anyhow, I sometimes feel as though the handling is a bit sloppy, it would be nice to get a bit more feedback on corners. Also I reckon the roll could be reduced a bit. All I can describe it as, is the handling feels slightly...err....muted? Not as sharp as I reckon it could.

 

My only comparison is newer cars to be honest, the handling just feels much sharper even though weight is similar.

 

From what I read, checking geometry should be one of the things I should look into. Also it seems as though just changing the shocks is a good plan, anyone got any pointers?

 

Thanks very much

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I'd be interested to hear your extended comments on how you find the steering.

 

Kinda hard to describe, the actual steering seems relatively good, though possibly could be a bit more responsive. I suppose I imagine it similar to comparing it to a newer cars brakes, for some reason new cars seem incredibly sharp on the brakes - going from an older car to a newer one you almost go through the windscreen! Its worth noting the Supra is my first car of its type, I did previously have a celica which I think felt a bit more responsive, that could be due to weight?

 

When I think about it, I think the main part is that the I feel the car could feel better during the corner. It almost feels like it shouldnt be pushed as it might not handle very well, thats probably due to roll, but I'm a layman when it comes to these things so I might be misreading the signs. Just feels a bit sluggish...

 

Well, hopefully that makes some form of sense? Cheers for the reply

 

Uprated dampers and springs will help, plus a good alignment check, you could also go the uprated anti roll bar route, but don't do both, unless its intended to be a track car, same goes for uprated bushes, all will make it feel tighter, but also a much harsher ride, the Supra is a GT car after all.

 

Cheers, I'll have a look into it :)

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OK sounds like the following to me.

You have the classic "all or nothing" steering response, where the first "O'Clock", does little and the next small turn of the wheel has the car going into oversteer. This can be corrected with non stock geo settings.

 

What brand and size of tyre are you running?

 

The brakes - you have UK spec, if all is in good order and its got decent pads, check the edge of your discs for a wear lip, if its noticable I'd replace. You may need to free up the calipers some. New DOT 4 fluid will give a nice pedal feel as well as a master cylinder stopper from Envy, they are cheap and effective for pedal feel.

I have used a few pads and discs, and i have to say DBA grooved discs and Endless CCX pads are a fantastic combo, I've tested to the extremes and they are faultless and low dust. If the endless are a bit expensive for you then EBC yellow stuff in its latest compound will do a good job.

I remember having a few very low mileage celicas and the brakes were fab to say the least, but a lighter car also. The supra held a production car braking record for many years, so if yours are not good then time to spend a few quid on them.

A good man to sort all your probs out in one go, and send you home in a much improved car is Chris Wilson on here. His work is worth every penny.

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Uprated dampers and springs will help, plus a good alignment check, you could also go the uprated anti roll bar route, but don't do both, unless its intended to be a track car, same goes for uprated bushes, all will make it feel tighter, but also a much harsher ride, the Supra is a GT car after all.

 

Are you saying if you uprate the springs and dampers dont do the antiroll bars ? if so why ?

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Are you saying if you uprate the springs and dampers dont do the antiroll bars ? if so why ?

 

Very much depends on what you want from the car. as i said if you want a track capable car, then go for springs+dampers and ARB, you can also use uprated bushes, but if you want a road car that will be relatively comfortable then just do S&D or ARB both will loosen you're fillings over bad roads;)

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I'm also looking into the change bushing thing.

Now, I'm danish and not completely sure on whats the Control arm. As there apparently are both upper and lower, front and rear, I'm guessing its the same as the suspension arms, right?

I just didn't think that you were able to change the bushings in these without buying a completely new arm? (just did that for the upper, right. very expensive..)

 

In relation to what meph137 asks, is there any difference in the results from the various bushes suggested in threads? MVPmotorsports are 380USD for front and rear (does this include both upper and lower?). Paul Whiffins is much cheaper as are others.

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OK sounds like the following to me.

You have the classic "all or nothing" steering response, where the first "O'Clock", does little and the next small turn of the wheel has the car going into oversteer. This can be corrected with non stock geo settings.

 

Nice to know I'm not alone! :)

 

The brakes - you have UK spec, if all is in good order and its got decent pads, check the edge of your discs for a wear lip, if its noticable I'd replace. You may need to free up the calipers some. New DOT 4 fluid will give a nice pedal feel as well as a master cylinder stopper from Envy, they are cheap and effective for pedal feel.

I have used a few pads and discs, and i have to say DBA grooved discs and Endless CCX pads are a fantastic combo, I've tested to the extremes and they are faultless and low dust. If the endless are a bit expensive for you then EBC yellow stuff in its latest compound will do a good job.

I remember having a few very low mileage celicas and the brakes were fab to say the least, but a lighter car also. The supra held a production car braking record for many years, so if yours are not good then time to spend a few quid on them.

A good man to sort all your probs out in one go, and send you home in a much improved car is Chris Wilson on here. His work is worth every penny.

 

Thanks for taking the time to make that reply up, really nice and compreshensive - I'll have a look into everything you've said. I was considering a cylinder stopper - wuold you say the brake improvement is quite noticable? Also I saw that braided brake lines may be a worthwhile investment, though I'm not sure how much they help.

 

I may talk to Chris, it seems everyone rates him very highly. Though obviously the work done has a large effect, I'm interested to know if anyone has any rough figures for a getting a non-standard geo setup from Chris?

 

What brand and size of tyre are you running?

 

They are Bridgestone Potenza RE711's. On the front they are 235/45 zr17, I can't remember the rear but they are all standard 17" sizes afaik.

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I may talk to Chris, it seems everyone rates him very highly. Though obviously the work done has a large effect, I'm interested to know if anyone has any rough figures for a getting a non-standard geo setup from Chris?

 

 

Due to the pitfalls of siezed suspension components, nuts, bolts etc., Chris refuses to quote specific amounts. Having had all my suspension arms etc changed a while back and they had to resort to a gas cutting torch at one point, I can understand that.

 

-Ian

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Very much depends on what you want from the car. as i said if you want a track capable car, then go for springs+dampers and ARB, you can also use uprated bushes, but if you want a road car that will be relatively comfortable then just do S&D or ARB both will loosen you're fillings over bad roads;)

 

I have Eibach lowering springs with new o/e dampers and Trd antiroll bars and would agree that over bad rds its wise to slow up a touch but on decent rds its superb which imo far outways it not being a limo over rougher terrain :)

 

Seems to work pretty well on track too :)

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RE711's are more of a comfort tyre for large saloons. You will have a massive difference in handling just by switching all 4 to RE050A pole position. Stick with the stock sizes that Toyota use for your 17" wheels. RE711's would be nice on an Avensis D4-D lol.

NO amount of mods will make a comfort tyre handle like a true sports tyre. Your off the line traction will also be much better. So start with the tyres, those and a modified geometry by CW, it may well be all you need.

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RE711's are more of a comfort tyre for large saloons. You will have a massive difference in handling just by switching all 4 to RE050A pole position. Stick with the stock sizes that Toyota use for your 17" wheels. RE711's would be nice on an Avensis D4-D lol.

NO amount of mods will make a comfort tyre handle like a true sports tyre. Your off the line traction will also be much better. So start with the tyres, those and a modified geometry by CW, it may well be all you need.

 

Ah right ok, I'd heard "potenza's were great" from a few people, obviously not the entire range! :) cheers for the info :)

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I'm also looking into the change bushing thing.

Now, I'm danish and not completely sure on whats the Control arm. As there apparently are both upper and lower, front and rear, I'm guessing its the same as the suspension arms, right?

I just didn't think that you were able to change the bushings in these without buying a completely new arm? (just did that for the upper, right. very expensive..)

 

In relation to what meph137 asks, is there any difference in the results from the various bushes suggested in threads? MVPmotorsports are 380USD for front and rear (does this include both upper and lower?). Paul Whiffins is much cheaper as are others.

 

 

MVP are the cheapest that i know of at about $400 for the whole car, didnt know whifbitz did a set, just checked and they are 416 pounds.

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I'm fairly certain I say Paul quoting something lower, but I can't find it now.. typical. Might have read wrong though.

 

Am I right about the Control Arms being the same as suspension arms? How about experiences with different brands of bushes?

 

Yes, and i only know of powerflex, but they dont supply ALL of the bushes neccessary. They dont provide the rear upper wishbone bushes. Which seems rather rediculous

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