View Full Version : Fitting SAFC
Do not know if theres already a thread for this could any of you supply me with a wiring diagram of what wires i am tapping into as theres is not any instructions its a none turbo to turbo conversion do not know if theres any difference with the colour and possition between the turbo harness mines still the none turbo
First piece of advice...Don't use the SAFC...while it will work, it is certainly nowhere near being the right unit for an NA-T unit.
Whats the best device as a fill me in whilest saving for aftermarket management i am going to be running hardly any boost and fit a air fuel meter of some sort until i can afford something better i know its not the best plan but i recently become unemployed and watching funds till i get somewhere else
kieren1234
04-05-08, 10:44
you have PM
Whats the best device as a fill me in whilest saving for aftermarket management i am going to be running hardly any boost and fit a air fuel meter of some sort until i can afford something better i know its not the best plan but i recently become unemployed and watching funds till i get somewhere else
Wait till you have all the bits then... don't fit it till then, it will end in tears. Cheap NA-T's have a habit of ending up costing a lot more...
If you are a DIY'er with restraint then go for it, an SAFC can't optimise the setup but it has been used on cars at modest power/boost levels..........IMO its owners taking libertys that often causes single turbo engine failures.
Chris Wilson
04-05-08, 11:31
Whats the best device as a fill me in whilest saving for aftermarket management i am going to be running hardly any boost and fit a air fuel meter of some sort until i can afford something better i know its not the best plan but i recently become unemployed and watching funds till i get somewhere else
Put the car away until you can afford a proper ECU. Trying to run it as it is will end up costing you a packet, it just IS NOT going to run properly, and will probably cause an engine failure in due course.
Chris Wilson
04-05-08, 11:32
Whats the best device as a fill me in whilest saving for aftermarket management
Sarcastic answer: A car cover.
Sarcastic answer: A car cover.
.......... :rlol:
I will not fit the kit then until i can afford it i was just going to use my unemployment time to do the conversion
A will blank the oil returns and that and am just going to run it as stock again for a while
What mangement do you suggest i do not want a big increase in power i just want a light boost conversion until i am old enough to insure the real deal
I will not fit the kit then until i can afford it i was just going to use my unemployment time to do the conversion
A will blank the oil returns and that and am just going to run it as stock again for a while
What mangement do you suggest i do not want a big increase in power i just want a light boost conversion until i am old enough to insure the real deal
Good idea mate :thumbs: Whether you want a lot or a little boost, the management will stay the same so get yourself a decent ecu and go from there. PowerFC if you can find one or a Link would be good, have tried a few ECUs now and I still favour the AEM - there's just so much you can do with it. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for all my customers to buy MoTeCs, but they are just too expensive.
Sarcastic answer: A car cover.
Thank you sir, I now wish to claim damages for the tea that has gone up my nose.. (and yes it really did :p)
:D Tickled me too, thankfully my coffee is still enroute (service here is awful ;) )
Tricky-Ricky
04-05-08, 12:00
I would hesitate in trying to run a PFC as you would have to run the TT version, and i am not sure if its physically possible, or if it will have anything like the same wiring in place of the N/A ECU, i would go for a EMU on a budget, or Link/AEM if you can afford them.
been searching for managment systems and most of the place round where i live are offering a MEGA SQUIRT system whats that it sounds alright but is priced to cheap
does the the electronics make adjustments through a MAP sensor to detect pressure or through a LAMBA system or some other way
Does it make adjustments to fuel rich mixture electronicaly or is there somewhere to do it manually obviously i would of thought through sensors and preprogramed maps but i am not used to all these just the the basic MFI injection systems are all that i know from the zetec turbo i was running until i got my supa
been searching for managment systems and most of the place round where i live are offering a MEGA SQUIRT system whats that it sounds alright but is priced to cheap
does the the electronics make adjustments through a MAP sensor to detect pressure or through a LAMBA system or some other way
Does it make adjustments to fuel rich mixture electronicaly or is there somewhere to do it manually obviously i would of thought through sensors and preprogramed maps but i am not used to all these just the the basic MFI injection systems are all that i know from the zetec turbo i was running until i got my supa
The megasquirt is an OKAY unit, but it is kit based ECU and it isn't as straight forward, there are some quirks with it regarding crank signal's and things like that... I've heard of it being used before, but not sure on the success rate. Which version of the megasquirt v2 or v3? The new v3 I remember reading when it was first announced had some real advanced stuff such as CAN bus, modules..
BUT it is a homebrew unit and not that brilliant, and not sure who has mapped one yet...
You are aware that you will need a few sensors with which ever ECU you go with, widebands and the such like.
The megasquirter does have one positive option at the moment which is that it can use the flexfuel sensor for E85, so if you really consider the megasquirter it is probably an idea to upgrade injectors, fuel pump and fuel lines (which you should probably do the first one ANYWAY for NA-T), and then you could make use of that feature going forward.
The megasquirt uses both Lambda and MAP sensors...
what ECU's can alter the timing of a NA-T, any?
what ECU's can alter the timing of a NA-T, any?
The emanage ultimate can in theory... Not sure if anyone has put it too the test. The megasquirter can as well.
contrary to all the comment on here the SAFC can be used successfully, my car has been running one for the past 2 years on a T61 with high boost of 1.4 bar, and if anyone wants proof of how effective they are i am more than willing to take anyone for a blast :eyebrows:, however it runs with the stock twin turbo ecu doing most of the donkey work the SAFC enhancing (fudging) the signal at the key points, basically the car still thinks its a turbo it just does not realise it now only has one, the problem you will have is your car still thinks its an N/A, i think what your asking it to do goes well above the basic function of an SAFC, i would start at an e-manage ultimate as a bare minimum
Just want to play a bit of devils advocate here, not to wind people up but to gain some understanding, so please correct anything below........
If most ecu's don't adjust timing then are they all effectively fuel computers with different levels of resolution?
On the road mapping is basically driving and fueling/timing adjustments to initially create smooth running, no misfiring detting etc, and then to optimise power with an element of safe headroom for unfavourable conditions?
Now the way i see it, with a relatively modest move in power/boost away from stock the stock ECU with the SAFC can provide a smooth running car it just can't optimise the power, or certainly not as well as the other more complex ECU's, but can be made to work at a safely rich level?
With a standalone ECU you have to setup everything AFIAK, ie cold start hot start etc etc, with the retained stock ECU you will not have the potential problems, so is a standalone preferable at 'low' boost levels?
What i'm saying is on a low 5psi or less NA-T what does a 'decent' or 'proper' ECU provide other than more resolution?
what i'm saying is on a low 5psi or less NA-T what does a 'decent' or 'proper' ECU provide other than more resolution?
i think at that boost level yes an SAFC would do a job and an old SITC (if you could find one) would correct any timing if it were needed at all, you would still need to get it set up on a dyno though
Tricky-Ricky
04-05-08, 15:51
Just want to play a bit of devils advocate here, not to wind people up but to gain some understanding, so please correct anything below........
If most ecu's don't adjust timing then are they all effectively fuel computers with different levels of resolution?
On the road mapping is basically driving and fueling/timing adjustments to initially create smooth running, no misfiring detting etc, and then to optimise power with an element of safe headroom for unfavourable conditions?
Now the way i see it, with a relatively modest move in power/boost away from stock the stock ECU with the SAFC can provide a smooth running car it just can't optimise the power, or certainly not as well as the other more complex ECU's, but can be made to work at a safely rich level?
With a standalone ECU you have to setup everything AFIAK, ie cold start hot start etc etc, with the retained stock ECU you will not have the potential problems, so is a standalone preferable at 'low' boost levels?
What i'm saying is on a low 5psi or less NA-T what does a 'decent' or 'proper' ECU provide other than more resolution?
Will try and answer in order, 1/most aftermarket piggyback/std alone ECUs and std ECUs are fully functional IE adjust fuelling and timing, (but only fuelling in the case of SAFC.
2/ correct!
3/Also correct, but in the case of the SAFC and similar, they have very limited resolution, IE not so many load vs RPM points to adjust, so all the adjustments are coarse, so the scope for getting fuelling spot on is somewhat lost, which applies to both low and high boost/load.
4/ and 5/ yes you have to set up every parameter, but you are confusing the low boost bit with low airflow/load and power, you can run low boost and still achieve high airflow, power and load with a mid sized turbo, so you still need to have decent map resolution in order to get the best out of it and avoid problem areas, IE gaps in the map resolution, where a load v RPM point is not being covered fully and will either be too rich/weak, or too advanced/retarded, I'm sure Ryan will be along to explain further.
But in essence yes you can get away with just an SAFC, but you will run some risk, and may never get the best from your engine.
I basically need to decide then if i want to run the very cheap option with the potential risk of damage if used hard or go for the lot more expensive option but only running 6 psi max boost and therefore never using the software to its potential and probably never will it would just be more show and hopefully a will be able to get insurance for the real turbo soon with the right gearing and running gear to withstand turbo power not a converted
The thing is i got the none turbo converted to turbo engine cheap and converted it just to do a swap with the engine thats in in turn hopefully not been from road for long getting converted which will give me a spare to swap back to if goes wrong i just got to decide if i would want to bother doing all that instead of paying for the right gear
Any ideas at the complete cost for everything i need
i am going to go for something similar to the safc but with more functions for advance and retard ignition maps and that what is the best budget SAFC style where it just taps in to the standard management unit and where can i get it
will i need to change the injectors
i have already put the highy flow high pressure pump in and adjustable regultor with gauge and is running verniers
Will try and answer in order, 1/most aftermarket piggyback/std alone ECUs and std ECUs are fully functional IE adjust fuelling and timing, (but only fuelling in the case of SAFC.
2/ correct!
3/Also correct, but in the case of the SAFC and similar, they have very limited resolution, IE not so many load vs RPM points to adjust, so all the adjustments are coarse, so the scope for getting fuelling spot on is somewhat lost, which applies to both low and high boost/load.
4/ and 5/ yes you have to set up every parameter, but you are confusing the low boost bit with low airflow/load and power, you can run low boost and still achieve high airflow, power and load with a mid sized turbo, so you still need to have decent map resolution in order to get the best out of it and avoid problem areas, IE gaps in the map resolution, where a load v RPM point is not being covered fully and will either be too rich/weak, or too advanced/retarded, I'm sure Ryan will be along to explain further.
But in essence yes you can get away with just an SAFC, but you will run some risk, and may never get the best from your engine.
many thanks for that.
Tricky-Ricky
04-05-08, 18:13
i am going to go for something similar to the safc but with more functions for advance and retard ignition maps and that what is the best budget SAFC style where it just taps in to the standard management unit and where can i get it
will i need to change the injectors
i have already put the highy flow high pressure pump in and adjustable regultor with gauge and is running verniers
If you are sensibly going to go for a more advanced unit then i would recommend either the Emanage ultimate or the MAP2, both can be had for around £4-500 with software and sensor.
In order to ascertain whether you need bigger injectors, you would need to monitor/datalog the injector duty cycle/duration, which both units can do, and TBH if you are going to do any of this you really would need to fit a wideband AFR setup.
Unfortunately going single, or turboing an N/A is not cheap, and as yours is N/A you are at more risk with std timing as the N/A runs higher compression.
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