View Full Version : Broken engine pictures
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 13:53
I thought I would start a new thread for those who wanted to see the engine damage from my mapping session last week, the last thread had gone a little off topic :D
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 13:54
more !
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 14:10
Ohh nasty! was it due to a dodgy injector? or just slightly ambitious fuelling/timing?
whoops!! thats not good mate
Ohh nasty! was it due to a dodgy injector? or just slightly ambitious fuelling/timing?
Or running too much boost during mapping?
Do you know what the main cause was, doesn't look too good:(
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 14:33
Do you know what the main cause was, doesn't look too good:(
This was the post from the mapper on the original thread, so not his fault :innocent:
I've been notified by at least 10people today of this thread. And did not imagine to find what I did when I read the 9 pages as it is now!
I feel that a couple of points need to be made by myself in relation to the start of this thread. Dean Tracey's Supra failing on the dyno.
1st The engine did not "Blow up". I tend to stop well before this point. No flames, no holes, no rattles etc It lost the capacity to maintain cylinder pressure on cylinder number 2. This is most likely caused by either piston or ring failure. The result is high crankcase pressure i.e. breathing. I have borescoped the engine and can see 6 pistons still in their bores.
2nd (Alex this one is for you) The car was being mapped to Deans instructions. "safe boost and Nitrous" I was aiming for 1.5bar on the high setting. To achieve this safe mapping slightly higher boost has to be visited to allow for comprehensive mapping. The piston or ring failed whilst momentarily at 1.75bar during mapping. Nitrous was not being used at the time but had been used earlier to set-up.
3rd I have not been responsible for any of the servicing, maintenance, or modifying of Deans car or infact any of the cars being discussed. I can only map with what I am given in these cases.
4th The car was producing 580bhp and 730Nm without Nitrous at 1.5bar.
5th Have had the pleasure of knowing Dean for 2 years now and think he truely is a top guy. I also know of the heartache and financial burden that he has gone through modifying his cars. I was very much looking for forward to finally finishing his car for him yesterday and did not enjoy making the bad news call to him.
6th Can't help but take it personally when people question my mapping competence and integrety.
So the mapping of up to 1.75bar probably didnt help.
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 14:53
Or running too much boost during mapping?
Thats was my point, i have heard of people running much more boost than that safely, so if the engine was built with the correct compression, then it should be fine with all else being within the right spec,
which is why i asked if there was a problem with an injector, or not enough fuel, or to much timing advance.
Get someone who knows their stuff to have a look at the block and head. If you're lucky you may get away with a .5mm overbore, max you can go is 1mm.
The head looks like it may be salvageable, although difficult to tell from the pics.
Wasn't this a stock bottom end?
This was the post from the mapper on the original thread, so not his fault :innocent:
I've been notified by at least 10people today of this thread. And did not imagine to find what I did when I read the 9 pages as it is now!
I feel that a couple of points need to be made by myself in relation to the start of this thread. Dean Tracey's Supra failing on the dyno.
1st The engine did not "Blow up". I tend to stop well before this point. No flames, no holes, no rattles etc It lost the capacity to maintain cylinder pressure on cylinder number 2. This is most likely caused by either piston or ring failure. The result is high crankcase pressure i.e. breathing. I have borescoped the engine and can see 6 pistons still in their bores.
2nd (Alex this one is for you) The car was being mapped to Deans instructions. "safe boost and Nitrous" I was aiming for 1.5bar on the high setting. To achieve this safe mapping slightly higher boost has to be visited to allow for comprehensive mapping. The piston or ring failed whilst momentarily at 1.75bar during mapping. Nitrous was not being used at the time but had been used earlier to set-up.
3rd I have not been responsible for any of the servicing, maintenance, or modifying of Deans car or infact any of the cars being discussed. I can only map with what I am given in these cases.
4th The car was producing 580bhp and 730Nm without Nitrous at 1.5bar.
5th Have had the pleasure of knowing Dean for 2 years now and think he truely is a top guy. I also know of the heartache and financial burden that he has gone through modifying his cars. I was very much looking for forward to finally finishing his car for him yesterday and did not enjoy making the bad news call to him.
6th Can't help but take it personally when people question my mapping competence and integrety.
I did't think I was questioning your ability and competence, I was only intrested in what happened,
So the mapping of up to 1.75bar probably didnt help.
I'm not question any person's skills or anything..
Was the 1.75bar on normal fuel (97 Octane) with or without meth/water injection?
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 15:49
I did't think I was questioning your ability and competence, I was only intrested in what happened,
This was as I said a quote from the mapper not me ;)
I would like to know what happened to :D
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 15:49
I'm not question any person's skills or anything..
Was the 1.75bar on normal fuel (97 Octane) with or without meth/water injection?
97 ron optimax fuel when mapped
1.75 bar on pump fuel. :blink:
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 16:04
Further to my last post, i really should read through the whole post! this is in reference to the original one, which i didn't read all of:innocent:
Anyway, what i didn't realise was the the engine in question was bog std:blink: mapping a big/er turbo with far more airflow to 1.5 BAR on std pistons and bottom end is IMO pushing your luck! and doing so knowing that there is a problem with boost spiking due to manifold design is just foolhardy (sorry!)
I would not have pushed it over 1.4 BAR without knowing that it some fail safes where in place, and in this instance WI would have been a must IMO
There is an awful lot of blame being chucked about on the other thread, which i suppose is understandable, i;m sorry but IMO it needs to be shared equally by a few people, as there are points all along the way that should have been addressed!
Its always a shame when this happens, but we all run these risks when modifying our cars;)
Has any compensation been mentioned?
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 16:10
Further to my last post, i really should read through the whole post! this is i reference to the original one, which i didn't read all of:innocent:
Anyway, what i didn't realise was the the engine in question was bog std:blink: mapping a a big/er turbo with far more airflow to 1.5 BAR on std pistons and bottom end is IMO pushing your luck! and doing so knowing that there is a problem with boost spiking due to manifold design is just foolhardy (sorry!)
I would not have pushed it over 1.4 BAR without knowing that it some fail safes where in place, and in this instance WI would have been a must IMO
There is an awful lot of blame being chucked about on the other thread, which i suppose is understandable, i;m sorry but IMO it needs to be shared equally by a few people, as there are points all along the way that should have been addressed!
Its always a shame when this happens, but we all run these risks when modifying our cars;)
Point taken and I will learn by this for sure, but as quoted my the mapper I asked for a 'safe map' 1.5 bar high bost (for the pod on the Sunday and odd blast only) and 1.2 bar normal boost setting, I never expected the car to be taken to 1.75bar but the mapper tells me as you can see from his post that this is the norm in mapping, so there is my learning curve :(
A lot of balme was chucked around (not by me infact) and some fell at TF for no reason, they have never modded the engine, only done head work in the past
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 16:13
Has any compensation been mentioned?
The mapper takes no responsibility I have asked and was told these things can happen, he mentioned a possible fueling problem in the last conversation but I have not expanded on this, I would rather he commented for himself than put words in this mouth but he does not come on the forum very often so that my be difficult
I have to get on and sort this out, the pictures we not intended to start the fingers of blame again as I dont see that going anywhere from the conversations I have had
1.75 bar on pump fuel. :blink:
Yeah, exactly... couldn't find the blink icon...
1.75bar on standard 97 is pushing luck a little too far for anyone's comfort..hence the reason for asking about water/meth injection.
Not even sure I would push 1.75 on 99 superunleaded either...
I would look for some more advice on this, as I would say that is WAY past comfort levels for standard fuel/det levels.
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 16:22
I understand how you must feel, as if my engine let go i would be in the position of not knowing if i had the funds to sort it!
I map my own car, and if i wanted a boost limit i would map to that, and extrapolate fuelling and timing for over boost conditions, and also make sure that it had a boost cut enabled, also as said water injection is invaluable when running higher boost/airflow;)
but then i am no professional mapper.
I hope you can get it sorted for a reasonable budget:)
The mapper takes no responsibility I have asked and was told these things can happen
If you asked for 1.5bar, then that is what you should have got, I would suggest perhaps seeking alternative advice regarding the mapper's responsibility.
If you asked for 1.5bar, then that is what you should have got, I would suggest perhaps seeking alternative advice regarding the mapper's responsibility.
Exactly, why would the mapper map to 1.75bar when you only asked for a maximum of 1.5bar :taped:
Especially on 97ron fuel.
I am no expert but this does seem a little strange to me :no:
Dan, for some unknown reason feels that he should map upto .25bar over what's requested to make sure that if you ever have a boost spike it's covered.
This is not in my, or anyone elses, opinion what's recommended and I'm quite frankly appaulled.
He should have;
Set a FuelCut/Boost Cut at 1.6bar.
Mapped to 1.5bar
Extrapolated out a rich point to cover between 1.5-1.6bar.
He should have not mapped beyond 1.5bar at any stage especially on a hot dyno!
Dean, looks like he owes you money IMO. 1 new stock bottom end.
looking at the pics of the crowns of the piston i would say the car has had chronic det issues as they are quite badly pitted (hope i'me not stating the obvious here), this does not happened overnight or in one mapping session, when i had my head off a while back i actually polished up the crowns to check for evidence of det and they came up perfectly smooth, i used to tune 2 strokes many moons ago so know what a det cratered piston looks like
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 17:33
looking at the pics of the crowns of the piston i would say the car has had chronic det issues as they are quite badly pitted (hope i'me not stating the obvious here), this does not happened overnight or in one mapping session, when i had my head off a while back i actually polished up the crowns to check for evidence of det and they came up perfectly smooth, i used to tune 2 strokes many moons ago so know what a det cratered piston looks like
The head was off not but a few weeks before to have new valve seals and a good clean up including a re shim, the pistons were in fantastic condition
this does not happened overnight or in one mapping session I disagree. Damage like that could occur in seconds under the right (wrong) conditions.
Dan, for some unknown reason feels that he should map upto .25bar over what's requested to make sure that if you ever have a boost spike it's covered.
This is not in my, or anyone elses, opinion what's recommended and I'm quite frankly appaulled.
He should have;
Set a FuelCut/Boost Cut at 1.6bar.
Mapped to 1.5bar
Extrapolated out a rich point to cover between 1.5-1.6bar.
He should have not mapped beyond 1.5bar at any stage especially on a hot dyno!
Dean, looks like he owes you money IMO. 1 new stock bottom end.
Alex, you sitting down right??
I agree *grin*
I disagree. Damage like that could occur in seconds under the right (wrong) conditions.
Yeah, high rev, high det... all you need is one small fragment at 6000 RPM and it gets VERY VERY VERY messy..
Gaz Walker
30-06-07, 17:44
I disagree. Damage like that could occur in seconds under the right (wrong) conditions.
Fully agree Jake.
The heat created by det could cause this in one dyno pull. Most of the crator damage to the head is from the piston/ring as it disintegrates.
This was as I said a quote from the mapper not me ;)
I would like to know what happened to :D
Sorry should have read things more throughly:)
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 17:50
Fully agree Jake.
So is it 'just something that happens' as the mapper says and also says it 'happened in an instant' or is it something that could and should have been avoided considering the circumstances, that is the big question for me ?
Could it just happen, yes... should it happen, not likely..
The fact that the engine was pushed to 1.75bar on 97 fuel is not acceptable especially as you the customer did not ask for a 1.75bar map.
Do you have any high res pics of the other pistons? (preferably acetone cleaned) Especially exhaust side.
Could well be the result of a sick injector if the others look good.(not that this excuses 1.75bar on 97 ron)
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:01
Do you have any high res pics of the other pistons? (preferably acetone cleaned) Especially exhaust side.
Could well be the result of a sick injector if the others look good.(not that this excuses 1.75bar on 97 ron)
No compression on 1,2 and 3, big damage on 2 and scoring on 1 and 3, with the 200kb limit I am having to use low res photo's, I have the car with me so I can take any pics you like need ;)
Upload them to Putfile mate, then just paste a link here :)
are you going to rebuild the engine up?
No compression on 1,2 and 3, big damage on 2 and scoring on 1 and 3, with the 200kb limit I am having to use low res photo's, I have the car with me so I can take any pics you like need ;)
Hmm, not a single injector issue then.
Send them over to me and I'll host them for you..
The head was off not but a few weeks before to have new valve seals and a good clean up including a re shim, the pistons were in fantastic condition
fair enough if you saw the pistons, but the tarnishing looks to me like old det that has had a coat of tarnish over the top, from my 2 stroke days (which pink like a b*****d) you would not see that much damage on just one run, i know a 2 stroke is a different animal but all the physics of det is exactly the same, was the tuner wearing det cans if yes he would of stopped/backed off long before the level of damage you can see in the pics
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
:rlol:
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
have to agree, if it was momentary blip up to 1.75 a healthy motor should be ok, but if it was sustained then yes......mentalist
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
:rlol: :clap: Quality find Michael. :D
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
Subtle dude, subtle *snigger*
was Dan listening to his Ipod instead of his det cans during those runs?
My personal belief (and having talking this through with some other techies) is that Dan is responsible for that damage. Dans no doubt going to throw a fit about this but I dont care as Im fed up with these things being hushed up on the forum and others going the same way.
Unless Dan can give a full technical explanation why its not his fault and why he isnt paying some or all of the repair bills then Im going to have to reconsider the trader membership he is operating under.
I cannot accept a member having their engine blown and the mapper taking no responsibility.
that should make things interesting.
JB
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
:respekt:
Must have had his detcans on then.
was Dan listening to his Ipod instead of his det cans during those runs?
My personal belief (and having talking this through with some other techies) is that Dan is responsible for that damage. Dans no doubt going to throw a fit about this but I dont care as Im fed up with these things being hushed up on the forum and others going the same way.
Unless Dan can give a full technical explanation why its not his fault and why he isnt paying some or all of the repair bills then Im going to have to reconsider the trader membership he is operating under.
I cannot accept a member having their engine blown and the mapper taking no responsibility.
that should make things interesting.
JB
:goodpost:
Totally agree, an explanation of how it was not his fault is needed.
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:33
Think this is right, not done putfile before, these are 7mega pixel
http://www.putfile.com/tooquicktostop/images/122794
Think this is right, not done putfile before, these are 7mega pixel
http://www.putfile.com/tooquicktostop/images/122794
Yep, they work:)
Edit: Pics couple of posts down :)
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
LOL :D
Really sorry to about your engine matey, i remember how gutted i was when my stock tubbies blew and that's no were near as bad as this! :(
Out of interest what sort of rebuild are you going for?
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301713.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833513)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301756.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833512)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301795.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833511)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301714.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833510)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301729.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833509)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301660.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833508)
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/6/18013301624.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5833507)
Bit easier :)
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:40
was Dan listening to his Ipod instead of his det cans during those runs?
My personal belief (and having talking this through with some other techies) is that Dan is responsible for that damage. Dans no doubt going to throw a fit about this but I dont care as Im fed up with these things being hushed up on the forum and others going the same way.
Unless Dan can give a full technical explanation why its not his fault and why he isnt paying some or all of the repair bills then Im going to have to reconsider the trader membership he is operating under.
I cannot accept a member having their engine blown and the mapper taking no responsibility.
that should make things interesting.
JB
Thanks for this level of support, I think you make some very valid points and I think the fact he has stated that he was told by me to map ' a safe map ' and '1.5 bar' must stand for something ?
I was not aware he was a trader on here ?
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:41
LOL :D
Really sorry to about your engine matey, i remember how gutted i was when my stock tubbies blew and that's no were near as bad as this! :(
Out of interest what sort of rebuild are you going for?
Not sure yet, working out my funds :(
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:44
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
....1.75 bar, standard internals, normal fuel.... mentalist.
Had to laugh even with my car issues :D
Had to laugh even with my car issues :D
My work here is done :)
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:50
have to agree, if it was momentary blip up to 1.75 a healthy motor should be ok, but if it was sustained then yes......mentalist
I know there had been a couple of 'blips' to 2 bar while the boost leak was being sorted
Not going to comment on the specifics of this case, but you can't simply say X amount of boost will cause det. It completely depends on the ignition advance you have. You can run high boost with more retarded timing or lower boost with more advanced timing. Det will occur when you have the timing too far advanced for the boost you are running. So you can't just say that 1.75 bar on 97 fuel will cause det - it may be completely fine if the ignition timing is ok.
deja vu thats just how mine was. melted n05 piston. but i also bent 1-6 conrods.
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 18:59
Not going to comment on the specifics of this case, but you can't simply say X amount of boost will cause det. It completely depends on the ignition advance you have. You can run high boost with more retarded timing or lower boost with more advanced timing. Det will occur when you have the timing too far advanced for the boost you are running. So you can't just say that 1.75 bar on 97 fuel will cause det - it may be completely fine if the ignition timing is ok.
Well should that not be part of the mapping set up ??, just asking as I really dont know too much about mapping
Well should that not be part of the mapping set up ??, just asking as I really dont know too much about mapping
Oh yes, definitely. You start really conservative and then advance it until you get maximum torque or start to hear det. Not saying it was or wasn't the mappers fault - don't like commenting when I don't have all the info. Just that there's a load of people throwing their hands up at the thought of det at high boost on standard fuel when that's not necessarily a problem. I wouldn't want to run a standard engine at that high boost anyway whether it dets or not!
Indeed it's not just the boost...but anyone wearing det cans - like a mapper should - would have picked up on the fact it was detting it's arse off...
Gaz Walker
30-06-07, 19:20
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
Nomination for post of the year...
Gaz.
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 19:23
Well I am going out now, but the car will be at my house for anyone who can offer a hands on opinion and inspection if something can be learnt from that, I will provide a cuppa !! that offer is also open to Dan and he would be more than welcome to come over and discuss his thoughts as he has not yet seen the internals as they are
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 19:36
Not going to comment on the specifics of this case, but you can't simply say X amount of boost will cause det. It completely depends on the ignition advance you have. You can run high boost with more retarded timing or lower boost with more advanced timing. Det will occur when you have the timing too far advanced for the boost you are running. So you can't just say that 1.75 bar on 97 fuel will cause det - it may be completely fine if the ignition timing is ok.
True you cant say fuel + boost = det, but you can say that 1.75 Bar on a std engine isn't going to have some consequences;) especially if det isn't being monitored properly, also the mapper should have full control of the ignition and fuelling during the run, so at the first sign of det it can be rectified
However its not as simple as to much ignition advance for the boost, as to little advance can also have the same result for the given fuelling.
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 19:38
Have you got any pics of the plugs that came from the engine?
Not going to comment on the specifics of this case, but you can't simply say X amount of boost will cause det. It completely depends on the ignition advance you have. You can run high boost with more retarded timing or lower boost with more advanced timing. Det will occur when you have the timing too far advanced for the boost you are running. So you can't just say that 1.75 bar on 97 fuel will cause det - it may be completely fine if the ignition timing is ok.
Agreed, but would have thought 1.75bar (blipping to 2bar) on 97RON would require so much retard, it would verge on antilag!
But as you say, without all the facts, maybe we should step away.
Indeed it's not just the boost...but anyone wearing det cans - like a mapper should - would have picked up on the fact it was detting it's arse off...
Unless he was deaf. (Michaels fault)
Do you have access to the AEM ECU and software as you may be able to download some logging data, depends if it was enabled.
The AEM utilises the stock knock sensors and as well as det cans you can see the 0-5v output of each sensor, when I am playing with the AEM I always have these on screen as well as det cans. Once mapping is finished you then configure and turn on knock control.
If you asked for 1.5bar then I dont see why a 1.55 or 1.6bar boost cut was configured instead of mapping the upper cells, there is no reason why your boost should over shoot what you have requested.
tooquicktostop
30-06-07, 20:16
Have you got any pics of the plugs that came from the engine?
My GF is going to kill me if we dont leave now, I have the plugs and all the bits , will post up pic tomorrow if that helps
Tricky-Ricky
30-06-07, 20:21
My GF is going to kill me if we dont leave now, I have the plugs and all the bits , will post up pic tomorrow if that helps
OK no problem, just interested, as they will help to show just how bad the det was depending on the type of plug;)
go out and try and forget about you engine for a while:)
My GF is going to kill me if we dont leave now, I have the plugs and all the bits , will post up pic tomorrow if that helps
mate cmon g/fs are easy to come buy engines are not:D;)
RobSheffield
30-06-07, 20:43
http://www.youtube.com/v/c7Na6z03tW4
Classic Michael ;)
Lyndon @ Rogue
01-07-07, 01:48
I would imagine the block can be sleeved to recover the bores (typically £100 a hole). We do it all the time to 3S-GTE blocks when customers have had 87mm overbores that have gone pear shaped.
It's a shame you have had a bad expirence with the mapping side of things as it's going to make the next time even more of a :hide:
Mapping should be part of the tuning experience, I always involve my customers in the process as much as possible as I always find they relax more when you talk to them and let them know what you are doing and why. Both the dyno's I use (Race Shack's 2000bhp Mustang & PJ's 1600bhp Dynapack) will allow the customer to be involved. Making someone sit and wait in a room while you give their car 6 and out in a dyno cell is a bit rubbish. Even if the dyno I was using had a no customer policy, you would still get a turn as I do 80% of the map on the road. I only use the dyno for refining top end where silly speeds on the road would be just too dangrous / costly and to obtain a figure for Pub Trumps :d
Lyndon.
tooquicktostop
01-07-07, 09:52
Spark Plugs
Of the golf now, catch up with this later ;)
http://www.putfile.com/tooquicktostop/images/123018
I think I should add a disclaimer to my spark plugs post....
Don't use IRIDIUM'S when MAPPING!
Reason being, the iridiums don't break...sounds odd but they are so immune to det that other bits suffer first....like pistons.
Do use Iridiums once the car is setup.
Copper plugs like NGK BKR7E's will fall apart when det occurs, stopping the engine firing....this is handy when the mapper hasn't got his detcans on and has missed the fact det is occuring!!
Tricky-Ricky
01-07-07, 13:10
I think I should add a disclaimer to my spark plugs post....
Don't use IRIDIUM'S when MAPPING!
Reason being, the iridiums don't break...sounds odd but they are so immune to det that other bits suffer first....like pistons.
Do use Iridiums once the car is setup.
Copper plugs like NGK BKR7E's will fall apart when det occurs, stopping the engine firing....this is handy when the mapper hasn't got his detcans on and has missed the fact det is occuring!!
Sorry Alex but that is the complete apposite to every experience i have/and a lot of other people who have run them and had det!:blink:
Every time i have seen an iridium plug that has disintegrated/melted it has been due to det! and Denso in particular!
I always use std type or platinum for this reason. as they fall apart and cause more damage.
Anyway on to plugs in the pics, if these are iridiums, then i have to say that the det was only for a very short period of time as otherwise as i said they would have been destroyed, this is why i asked to see them.
Not trying to shit stir or anything, but it would have been nice for Dan to comment on this as he was viewing it a little earlier today.
:(
Supra ST Myster
01-07-07, 17:56
just curious, did you still have to pay Dan for the mapping session?
tooquicktostop
01-07-07, 19:31
just curious, did you still have to pay Dan for the mapping session?
Yep I had to pay for the mapping session
Supra ST Myster
01-07-07, 19:34
Yep I have to pay for the mapping session
hmm :rolleyes: Bit bad really, damages your engine and then you have to pay for the pleasure of it also!
Personally i wouldnt have.
Supra ST Myster
01-07-07, 19:42
Personally i wouldnt have.
Exactly!
Exactly!
In fact, Dan should be paying out the money to get this fixed.
tooquicktostop
01-07-07, 19:49
In fact, Dan should be paying out the money to get this fixed.
But he does not think he has anything to do with the engine failure thats my problem :(
The pistons were in mint condition when you had the head off. Now they are fooked due to det whilst being mapped. How is that not his fault?
tooquicktostop
01-07-07, 19:59
The pistons were in mint condition when you had the head off. Now they are fooked due to det whilst being mapped. How is that not his fault?
As he said in his reply to the thread he blames the engine and perhaps fueling, he has told me himself that he is not responsible for the damage, 'these things just happen sometimes'
Honestly I dont see him coming forward and doing anything about this, and I did not expect that anyway, I just wanted to highlight the dangers of mapping and ensuring you get the car mapped exactly they way you want it and get advice on what the limitations are and should be, although a mapper should be giving you that advise IMO
He didnt map it to how you wanted though. You wanted 1.5bar, he then tried to map it up to 1.75bar. I know we dont know what sort of timing was being used at the time. But still 1.75bar on a stock motor is not good.
As he said in his reply to the thread he blames the engine and perhaps fueling
Would not have thought it would be fueling, them pics of your plugs dont look like they have been running in a lean condition
Sorry Alex but that is the complete apposite to every experience i have/and a lot of other people who have run them and had det!:blink:
Every time i have seen an iridium plug that has disintegrated/melted it has been due to det! and Denso in particular!
I always use std type or platinum for this reason. as they fall apart and cause more damage.
Anyway on to plugs in the pics, if these are iridiums, then i have to say that the det was only for a very short period of time as otherwise as i said they would have been destroyed, this is why i asked to see them.
The ceramics can break....but in this case the plugs are in good condition, but the piston is fooked...thus backing up my argument.
pardon my ignorance but who does this "Dan" work for ? i think it would be usefull for peeps to know and then they can make their own judgement
Supra ST Myster
01-07-07, 22:41
pardon my ignorance but who does this "Dan" work for ? i think it would be usefull for peeps to know and then they can make their own judgement
Mickey Mouse :D
suprafan72
01-07-07, 22:54
Come on guys, give the guy a break.. .Nitrous does tend to spike boost as we all know... So i can see Dan's argument in raising the boost for mapping.. its a very difficult one to Judge... We all know there is huge risk in tuning an engine especially with nitrous!!! So a map with 1.5 bar could easily spike to 1.7 bar on a nitrous run??
Come on guys, give the guy a break.. .Nitrous does tend to spike boost as we all know... So i can see Dan's argument in raising the boost for mapping.. its a very difficult one to Judge... We all know there is huge risk in tuning an engine especially with nitrous!!! So a map with 1.5 bar could easily spike to 1.7 bar on a nitrous run??
However nitrous provides cooling as its main function, this aids in prevent detonation which results from the raised pressure.
We all know there is huge risk in tuning an engine especially with nitrous!!! So a map with 1.5 bar could easily spike to 1.7 bar on a nitrous run??
No, that’s not right at all. The mapper should configure the N02 input after the initial map is done, in no way should it be mapped in such a way that the N02 uncontrollably raised the boost. If it does that, again it comes down to the mapper correctly configuring the N02 control.
Come on guys, give the guy a break.. .Nitrous does tend to spike boost as we all know... So i can see Dan's argument in raising the boost for mapping.. its a very difficult one to Judge... We all know there is huge risk in tuning an engine especially with nitrous!!! So a map with 1.5 bar could easily spike to 1.7 bar on a nitrous run??
Why, does the wastegate and EBC suddenly forget how to work??? I've never heard of nitrous spiking the boost...please can you give some examples.
Personally I don't believe this to be the case IF the wastegate and EBC are setup correctly.
suprafan72
01-07-07, 23:14
No, that’s not right at all. The mapper should configure the N02 input after the initial map is done, in no way should it be mapped in such a way that the N02 uncontrollably raised the boost. If it does that, again it comes down to the mapper correctly configuring the N02 control.
Its a tough call, I had an N20 Car that i ran nitrous on and it was very difficult to keep maintained steady boost as nitrous does make boost harder to control and set during different ambient temperature conditions....
suprafan72
01-07-07, 23:17
Why, does the wastegate and EBC suddenly forget how to work??? I've never heard of nitrous spiking the boost...please can you give some examples.
Personally I don't believe this to be the case IF the wastegate and EBC are setup correctly.
Im not sure on how Dean Turbo Boost was controlled either? was it EBC or did the AEM control it?
Its a tough call, I had an N20 Car that i ran nitrous on and it was very difficult to keep maintained steady boost as nitrous does make boost harder to control and set during different ambient temperature conditions....
You are right, it does spike the boost, i have it on mine and the boost raises from 1.2bar to 1.4bar if i have the bottle right up to pressure.
I assume the AEM has a boost cut safety feature that can be set to prevent dangerous over boosting?
Jesus guys, you need to find a new mapper!! N02 is not uncontrolable. It's only a question of boost and controlled supply.
No, that’s not right at all. The mapper should configure the N02 input after the initial map is done, in no way should it be mapped in such a way that the N02 uncontrollably raised the boost. If it does that, again it comes down to the mapper correctly configuring the N02 control.
I could be mistaken, however from memory I believe the AEM actually has a seperate map for things like that. You would have a plain map, and when the nitrous is activated a secondary overlay map is added. It has been a while since I looked at the software though, so I could be wrong on this.
I assume the AEM has a boost cut safety feature that can be set to prevent dangerous over boosting?
Yes but if not set high enough then there is no point in having the Nos as everytime you use it it will hit fuel cut, Dan set up my nos on the dyno.
suprafan72
01-07-07, 23:37
You are right, it does spike the boost, i have it on mine and the boost raises from 1.2bar to 1.4bar if i have the bottle right up to pressure.
Going on Jamies Point, in the warmer weather nitrous will tend to work allot better than it would in the winter due it reaching its optimum bottle pressure (nitrous bottle getting to temperature).
suprafan72
01-07-07, 23:41
Jesus guys, you need to find a new mapper!! N02 is not uncontrolable. It's only a question of boost and controlled supply.
Please quote me if im wrong guys!!! But surely nitrous pressure can be variant if the bottle does not get up to pressure.. So you are taking a gamble to a degree if the bottle is not up to pressure.. hence the need for an accurate nitrous pressure gauge!!
So getting the perfect fuel/nitrous mix can be very hard to do especially with are very changing weather conditons.
Of course the ideal would be an ecu that could control the nitrous/fuel supply, with reading a nitrous pressure sensor...
Please quote me if im wrong guys!!! But surely nitrous pressure can be variant if the bottle does not get up to pressure.. So you are taking a gamble to a degree if the bottle is not up to pressure.. hence the need for an accurate nitrous pressure gauge!!
So getting the perfect fuel/nitrous mix can be very hard to do especially with are very changing weather conditons.
Yea basicly, it needs to be mapped in with the bottle at full pressure so you are covered on the street, best way to use nos imo would be to have a seperate map on a switch which lowers the boost a tad and retards the ignition before the nos is activated, that way you would not have to worry about the boost spikes.
The nitrous pressure gauge ONLY measures the pressure of the gas head within the can.
Nitrous is supposed to be injected as close as possible to a liquid. The bottle has an internal straw, and this is the reason the bottle is put at an angle. The idea being the gas head is bigger, once the bottle heater is on, it will heat the bottle creating more pressure in the gas head, and thereby forcing the liquid into the pipework and finally into the engine.
The nozzle jets which you install are a restriction and as such regulate some of the pressure issues out. A blanket is a bit of a tarty thing at normal levels since the jets are so small (50-200shot). In big drag racing engines where they empty a 13lb bottle in one hit, then maybe heating the bottle helps.
Nitrous isn't a rocket science (well, depends if you know the twisted sanity boys or not *grin*)... but simple theory applies.
best way to use nos imo would be to have a seperate map on a switch which lowers the boost a tad and retards the ignition before the nos is activated, that way you would not have to worry about the boost spikes.
The AEM has this feature for exactly that purpose, at the flick of a switch nitrious can be activated along with fuel and ignition correction maps, there is also nothing to stop you configuring the same switch for low boost setting.
The AEM has this feature for exactly that purpose, at the flick of a switch nitrious can be activated along with fuel and ignition correction maps, there is also nothing to stop you configuring the same switch for low boost setting.
Out of interest, does the AEM support a progressive controlling of the nitrous solenoids?
Please quote me if im wrong guys!!! But surely nitrous pressure can be variant if the bottle does not get up to pressure.. So you are taking a gamble to a degree if the bottle is not up to pressure.. hence the need for an accurate nitrous pressure gauge!!
So getting the perfect fuel/nitrous mix can be very hard to do especially with are very changing weather conditons.
Of course the ideal would be an ecu that could control the nitrous/fuel supply, with reading a nitrous pressure sensor...
From what I understand the ECU should be able to read the N02 pressure and apply that to a pre-defined map (configured by your mapper).
Since the pressure in the bottle is controlled by heat and gas pressure it shouldn't make any difference to the supplied volume with regard to heat or the amount of gas you have left - otherwise, if it didn't when the tank reaches half full, it the ecu would continue to *think* it has twice the N02 input as it actually has.
As mentioned, it's all about mapping and proper control. N02 cannot be blamed in ANY way for boost spiking.
EDIT - darn you guys, way too slow again :(
suprafan72
02-07-07, 00:01
There could be a seperate thread raised here, whats most safest, a wet or dry nitrous kit..... I know the wet kits tend to be more affective, but they tend to be more prone to failure (i.e fuel solonoid failure) where dry kits rely's on fuel pressure... I do agree with Homer's comments that it is down to the mapper on doing a good fuel/ignition correction mapon nitrous activation.. the ideal would be to have contstant ideal bottle pressure (i.e bottle electric blanket to maintain the ideal pressure) and a map to suit nitrous activation
Out of interest, does the AEM support a progressive controlling of the nitrous solenoids?
There is a spare PWM output but the basic activation I think is done by just turning it on or off.
Out of interest, does the AEM support a progressive controlling of the nitrous solenoids?
Yes it does. It has a user definable PW output. This is basically a solenoid controller that can be set to control absolutely anything you want it to.
You can also have it set as a direct on/off as Wez mentioned.
There are seperate fuel and ignition modifier tables, and various settings to dictate when the nos should come in / out.
Edit- Doh Wez beat me to it. ;)
Yes it does. It has a user definable PW output. This is basically a solenoid controller that can be set to control absolutely anything you want it to.
You can also have it set as a direct on/off as Wez mentioned.
There are seperate fuel and ignition modifier tables, and various settings to dictate when the nos should come in / out.
Edit- Doh Wez beat me to it. ;)
That would strike as being the best way to control the nitrous system then. Use one of the switches inputs to activate the system. The new map will be activated, as well as having a PWM to do progressive control. This would allow a bigger jet system to be used, as well as linking it into the traction control map, so the nitrous could be used or removed depending on traction. This would also allow a more controlled hit, saving engine wear/damage and such like.
This may sound odd (and no disrespect to anyone as I don't know), but do any of the tuners that play with the AEM in this country have access to all the functionality? (This is just an honest question), as I seem to remember the AEM software had a HUGE range of functions, but I've not heard of people using them.
EDIT : Busy downloading the AEMTuner 2.2 software, just curosity really.
This may sound odd (and no disrespect to anyone as I don't know), but do any of the tuners that play with the AEM in this country have access to all the functionality? (This is just an honest question), as I seem to remember the AEM software had a HUGE range of functions, but I've not heard of people using them.
There is no lock on any functionality, everyone can access every feature.
suprafan72
02-07-07, 00:25
This may sound odd (and no disrespect to anyone as I don't know), but do any of the tuners that play with the AEM in this country have access to all the functionality? (This is just an honest question), as I seem to remember the AEM software had a HUGE range of functions, but I've not heard of people using them.
Well ive got the software on my laptop and yes it does have a huge range of functions and is certainly the Budget option of some of 5h3 MOTEC ecu's...(and has nearly about as many features as the MOTEC ecu...
Speaking to Dan about some of its features, he does seem clued up about what the ECU can provide....
Just had a quick look at 2.2. It links into things like knock sensors......now wouldn't something like that pick up det running on the engine and throw up an error?
Tricky-Ricky
02-07-07, 02:00
All this talk of nitrous, but i seem to remember it was said that it was not being used when the engine let go.
Just had a quick look at 2.2. It links into things like knock sensors......now wouldn't something like that pick up det running on the engine and throw up an error?
The software has always had this feature which is why in my earlier post I asked if it was enabled :blink:
All this talk of nitrous, but i seem to remember it was said that it was not being used when the engine let go.
I believe you are correct.
Setting up the knock detection strategy is quite difficult though.
It basically requires the user to run the car with no det and log the vibration that the knock sensor receives. The system then uses that log as a baseline, and any (user definable) additional vibration detected by the knock sensor is determined to be det, and then user definable actions can be taken.
The key is you have to be able to run the car with no det to start with. For this reason it's still a necessity for the engine mapper to set the car up initially using det cans, and then set the knock sensors up once the car is running correctly. Then if the car starts to depart from "normal operation" for any reason the knock strategy comes into effect.
As Dan hadn't finished mapping the car, I doubt very much he had got to the point of turning the knock routine on.
Tony I agree with what you are saying but from my playing with this feature det tends to stand out from normal engine noise and when mapping you should have the knock voltages on display, even with the knock control turned off the sensors are still functioning.
Agreed. To be honest, when setting the fuel and ignition map det cans should be used anyway, and to be fair, from my experience of Dan's mapping, he did use them.
Chris Wilson
02-07-07, 12:01
There could be a seperate thread raised here, whats most safest, a wet or dry nitrous kit..... I know the wet kits tend to be more affective, but they tend to be more prone to failure (i.e fuel solonoid failure) where dry kits rely's on fuel pressure... I do agree with Homer's comments that it is down to the mapper on doing a good fuel/ignition correction mapon nitrous activation.. the ideal would be to have contstant ideal bottle pressure (i.e bottle electric blanket to maintain the ideal pressure) and a map to suit nitrous activation
IMO if you put nitrous on your car you'll almost certainly end up blowing it up. It's ONLY usage, IMO, is to pre spool a big turbo in drag race cars. On the road it's a disaster waiting to happen, and a pub talk gimmick. Most people seem to have enough trouble getting an engine mapped to run properly on petrol, let alone trying to map for nitrous, too :)
Chris Wilson
02-07-07, 12:05
Unless you actually get very close to, or actually hear a bit of det you will have a problem optimizing the ignition map. Blow ups are a risk anyone modding any engine must accept and take on the chin, unless something really dumb takes place. What's the old adage, if you can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen? :)
Yep I had to pay for the mapping session
:blink: adding insult to injury? :search:
I can see the issue both from the side of the tuner and the punter.
My view is that the tuner should have prepared a disclaimer form for the punter to sign under such circumstances.
Yes it would lead to less people taking the plunge and opting for the dynotune (some would undoubtly chicken out), but it would also lead to less 'blame apportioning' problems once the engine has been damaged.
The final tuner can't be responsible for stale fuel in the tank, badly fitted engine parts or such --- but without some form of customer liability insurance neither can he be risking meltdown on someone else's bank balance.
Ugly.
Tricky-Ricky
02-07-07, 13:31
A lot of talk about knock sensing using certain stand alone ECUs, not sure how reliable Toyota sensors are, but i do know that they like a lot of others are built to a spec and budget to listen for a pre determined frequency, now one thing you have to conceder is that as an engine wears and/or is tuned for that matter, the frequency generated can change, making det sensing a bit hit or miss! sensing det when there wasn't any and retarding the ignition, and also interpreting engine noise as det, makes things difficult to say the least,i know this was defiantly the case on some of the Nissan's i have had.
IMO det cans are the best option, unless you want to spend £££ on sophisticated det management systems.
:blink: adding insult to injury? :search:
I can see the issue both from the side of the tuner and the punter.
My view is that the tuner should have prepared a disclaimer form for the punter to sign under such circumstances.
Yes it would lead to less people taking the plunge and opting for the dynotune (some would undoubtly chicken out), but it would also lead to less 'blame apportioning' problems once the engine has been damaged.
The final tuner can't be responsible for stale fuel in the tank, badly fitted engine parts or such --- but without some form of customer liability insurance neither can he be risking meltdown on someone else's bank balance.
Ugly.
Well said.
(I thought your name was John )
Well said.
(I thought your name was John )
ha ha class:D
There is a world of difference between hearing a bit of det while tuning, and the damage shown in those pictures though. If you are pushing the envelope, one ping should make you back off immediately in my opinion. That there was sustained heavy det for a good few seconds, and det is a self-feeding runaway thing, so you can catch it early before it does anything bad, it doesn't start off knocking chunks out of pistons.
And CW, if you asked for 1.5bar off your mapper and the engine let go while at 1.75bar, what would your response be? Just curious ;)
Anyway we can argue about nitrous and what boost levels are OK on pump fuel and who asked for what boost levels and the justifications thereof, or petrol quality or whatever until we are blue in the face. The simple fact of the matter is that that damage was done on the dyno while it was being mapped, but you can hear det come on for whatever reason and easily stop the run! Those pistons were wrecked by det, you can hear it when mapping and call it all off, the only reason I can see that it got lunched is because no-one was listening out for detonation taking place.
-Ian
Chris Wilson
02-07-07, 14:01
Ooooh, I am not getting into all that Ian C, oh no, no no :) Too busy suing myself for the rod out of bed at Anglesey ;)
Ooooh, I am not getting into all that Ian C, oh no, no no :) Too busy suing myself for the rod out of bed at Anglesey ;)
Good luck, I hear he's a tricky customer ;)
Chris Wilson
02-07-07, 14:17
Good luck, I hear he's a tricky customer ;)
He's such a nice guy I have decided to let the matter drop.
The simple fact of the matter is that that damage was done on the dyno while it was being mapped, but you can hear det come on for whatever reason and easily stop the run! Those pistons were wrecked by det, you can hear it when mapping and call it all off, the only reason I can see that it got lunched is because no-one was listening out for detonation taking place.
-Ian
That hits the nail on the head really.
Good post.:)
pardon my ignorance but who does this "Dan" work for ? i think it would be usefull for peeps to know and then they can make their own judgement
:search:
He's freelance, you can hire him directly. He does a lot of work for TurboFit but he's not employed by them or anyone.
He's freelance, you can hire him directly. He does a lot of work for TurboFit but he's not employed by them or anyone.
thanks Jake
He's freelance, you can hire him directly. He does a lot of work for TurboFit but he's not employed by them or anyone.
Where is the RR that he uses Jake?
He seems to have links to Ji-Kan http://www.jikan.co.uk Not sure if they are currently, but there was some posts up on the AEM forum from a Dan Turner in Northampton.
tooquicktostop
03-07-07, 08:52
Where is the RR that he uses Jake?
He uses the Marlin Motorsport RR in Bletchley, near Milton Keynes, I think he has set himself up there now with a small area of the garage as his, cant remember what he trades under?
gregsupra4
03-07-07, 18:02
Advanced Motorsport, is what Dan is operating under out of there. He is still affiliated with Jikan for parts I believe but as haven't spoken to him in over 2 months cant confirm that...as have been very poorly... just felt a bit better so thought I'd pop on and have a look see whats been going on.......!!!!!!!!! by the way this is Sam not Greg forgot to change the user login id....sorry.....
Dean, has Dan spoken to you more about this yet? Seeing as he hasnt replied on here.
tooquicktostop
04-07-07, 09:46
Dean, has Dan spoken to you more about this yet? Seeing as he hasnt replied on here.
No he has not made any contact, He did tell me he wanted to see the injectors when he had the chance :rolleyes:
No he has not made any contact, He did tell me he wanted to see the injectors when he had the chance :rolleyes:
So he can blame the injectors i suppose :innocent:
Tricky-Ricky
04-07-07, 11:28
So he can blame the injectors i suppose :innocent:
Looking at your plugs i seriously doubt it was a dogey injector.
Looking at your plugs i seriously doubt it was a dogey injector.
I know that, hense the :innocent: smiley. ;)
:D
dangerous brain
04-07-07, 12:20
So on a tuned engine an aftermarket knock monitoring system might be an idea then?? Are we talking huge money for this then? Just so I know, the piston crowns are they normally dimpled like that or is that pitting from detonation?? Also I had been led to believe by a man thats on holidays for a few years that the iridium plugs are a bad thing and that the ceramics fall out of them under det conditions. He then showed me my old engine with a whacking great hole in a piston where he'd gotten det and the centre of the spark plug had hit the piston. He said to use coppers until you were sure you had no det as they don't fall apart. He knew a thing or two as he ran the first UK car to a 10 second quarter so I took that as gospel.
Have you managed to strip that engine down yourself?? If you can do that kind of work yourself then at least some of the costs of this mishap will be less.
Do people think that it would be cheaper to fix the engine or replace it with a second hand item?? How much does it cost to fit bigger better pistons etc and is that actually an option here?
I am having my car mapped in a couple of weeks and am aware that similar things may happen as I stated before it happens to all the tuners at some point in time. Knowing what it could cost before I squeeze a bit more boost out is always a good idea.
Regarding knock sensing/warning - I tried a HKS Knock Amp, it was expensive, overcomplex, and I couldn't get it to work despite a lot of attempts :( It'll be on eBay at some point :) The support was zero. Absolutely nothing on the web, HKS's site, hardly anyone else has one and those that do only use the wideband function for some bizarre reason.
It wouldn't self-calibrate, it'd just come up with "err" on the display - not much use.
I've now got a KnockLite instead, looks much better so far but I haven't had time to fit it yet :)
-Ian
Yeah Dude suggested I run coppers too. Thing is, a mapper should never get to Det, THAT'S the problem. You can't blame the mapper for mechanical failures etc, but you can blame them for detonation through over aggressive timing.
Are you having yours mapped on a dyno ? Who is doing it ?
dangerous brain
04-07-07, 12:34
Er no comment lol
Chris Wilson
04-07-07, 12:38
I use these, the seller is a Motec UK mapper, of the highest calibre.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=10312
I've now got a KnockLite instead, looks much better so far but I haven't had time to fit it yet :)
-Ian
I started reading your post and thought, I'm sure I remember reading him mention something about another knock meter thing, I must post to ask about that...
How much is the knocklite? Hurry up and get it fitted :D
I use these, the seller is a Motec UK mapper, of the highest calibre.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=10312
Seller Rowedrive, Dave Rowe ??? If so then yes, good mapper :)
I use these, the seller is a Motec UK mapper, of the highest calibre.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=10312
Direct link the the knockbox website for the lazy people :)
http://www.theknockbox.com.au/
Just having a look at that now...
Seller Rowedrive, Dave Rowe ??? If so then yes, good mapper :)
Tells terrible jokes when he's drunk though.
:)
Chris Wilson
04-07-07, 12:54
http://www.chriswilson.tv/knock.wma for what knock sounds like on one of these. Timing at 4000 RPM, 17 degrees, no knock, 27 dgrees, lots of knock, back to 17 degrees, no knock. Lots of info on the Knock Box site.
Yeah Dude suggested I run coppers too. Thing is, a mapper should never get to Det, THAT'S the problem. You can't blame the mapper for mechanical failures etc, but you can blame them for detonation through over aggressive timing.
Are you having yours mapped on a dyno ? Who is doing it ?
Er no comment lol
Unlike you to be so unforthright. ;)
So how does it stand with mappers and liability then. Do you have to sign a disclaimer prior to the mapping session. Are you advised by the mapper about the risks involved prior to the session. Does the mapper accept any liability whatsoever?
Just like when you have your diesel vehicle mot'd there's a BIG sign usually in the public viewing area about making sure that your car's cambelt must be within the specified manufacturers service schedule as they will not accept any liability for cambelt failure during the emissions test.
dangerous brain
04-07-07, 13:02
I think its almost an unwritten rule. I don't recall any mention of at your own risk etc last time I was there but the pre-mapping moments are nervous ones and clarity about this is vague in my mind. I am pretty sure though that its held as known that if it goes pop in mapping the customer accepts liability for that. You've chosen the mapper and the mods on your car and you choose to have it mapped. Thats why reputation is so so so important in this business. Dan will be finishing the map on my car as arranged I just didn't want to get into that in this thread but I have nothing to hide and in my mind nothing to fear other than my own cars strengths or weakness's
Just like when you have your diesel vehicle mot'd there's a BIG sign usually in the public viewing area about making sure that your car's cambelt must be within the specified manufacturers service schedule as they will not accept any liability for cambelt failure during the emissions test.
Is it them same procedure for a petrol?
I was present when they did the emissions test on my coupe, was having to restrain myself from topping the tester as the car was being held at very high revs for quite some time, first time I'd ever seen it done :blink:
Would suspect it's even more hard on the car than a RR!
http://www.chriswilson.tv/knock.wma for what knock sounds like on one of these. Timing at 4000 RPM, 17 degrees, no knock, 27 dgrees, lots of knock, back to 17 degrees, no knock. Lots of info on the Knock Box site.
Thanks Chris, always wanted to know what it sounded like. :)
Thanks Chris, always wanted to know what it sounded like. :)
Actually that's electronically filtered. It sounds a lot different if you are monitoring with plain old det cans. I call them "spings" and "snicks", snicks being the early stuff. It kinda sounds like the ball bearing noise when you shake a can of paint.
Well, it kind of sounds like shaking a can of paint to a backgroud cacophony of valvetrain and drivetrain noise :)
-Ian
Actually that's electronically filtered. It sounds a lot different if you are monitoring with plain old det cans. I call them "spings" and "snicks", snicks being the early stuff. It kinda sounds like the ball bearing noise when you shake a can of paint.
Well, it kind of sounds like shaking a can of paint to a backgroud cacophony of valvetrain and drivetrain noise :)
-Ian
Well when mine is back on the road i will have to have a listen when i get you to map it :)
Well I'll be testing mine with that KnockLite so I'll have to try and artificially induce knock at low revs low/no boost by winding on the timing. I'll be listening with the cans quite intently, if I can fangle it I'll record what I hear on the laptop as well and post it up. Soon(tm)
Well I'll be testing mine with that KnockLite so I'll have to try and artificially induce knock at low revs low/no boost by winding on the timing. I'll be listening with the cans quite intently, if I can fangle it I'll record what I hear on the laptop as well and post it up. Soon(tm)
Thanks mate :)
I think its almost an unwritten rule. I don't recall any mention of at your own risk etc last time I was there but the pre-mapping moments are nervous ones and clarity about this is vague in my mind. I am pretty sure though that its held as known that if it goes pop in mapping the customer accepts liability for that. You've chosen the mapper and the mods on your car and you choose to have it mapped. Thats why reputation is so so so important in this business. Dan will be finishing the map on my car as arranged I just didn't want to get into that in this thread but I have nothing to hide and in my mind nothing to fear other than my own cars strengths or weakness's
its true that putting a car on a dyno is risky. However I would expect a mapper to ensure they took all the necessary precautions to keep my engine in one piece. Mapping to 17% above what was requested is not how I would expect it to be done, and melting a piston in that way means something wasnt being watched.
As Dan has not been in contact with tooquick and hasnt defended himself on the forum then I am probably going to have to remove all trace of him from the forum and put up a sticky post explaining what problems were encountered with this car and that we have no confidence in his mapping abilities. Also worth bearing in mind this is not the only incident that I know about with Dan, but its the only one that has gone this public.
JB
its true that putting a car on a dyno is risky. However I would expect a mapper to ensure they took all the necessary precautions to keep my engine in one piece. Mapping to 17% above what was requested is not how I would expect it to be done, and melting a piston in that way means something wasnt being watched.
As Dan has not been in contact with tooquick and hasnt defended himself on the forum then I am probably going to have to remove all trace of him from the forum and put up a sticky post explaining what problems were encountered with this car and that we have no confidence in his mapping abilities. Also worth bearing in mind this is not the only incident that I know about with Dan, but its the only one that has gone this public.
JB
Tell us more JB :)
dangerous brain
04-07-07, 13:38
Maybe that needs another thread.
Tell us more JB :)
its the same as always. We hear about problems with traders but can only save the information up for when the noise gets too much and we have to act. If we are seen to act without having the background information then we get fanned to death.
If members ask us not to go public with it then we wont, but we will save it up. If anybody encounters problems with traders we do prefer to hear about it, either in public or via PM.
JB
Without going into details then. Are there more problems that have occured like this one then ?
SUPRASUZUKI
04-07-07, 15:32
its the same as always. We hear about problems with traders but can only save the information up for when the noise gets too much and we have to act. If we are seen to act without having the background information then we get fanned to death.
If members ask us not to go public with it then we wont, but we will save it up. If anybody encounters problems with traders we do prefer to hear about it, either in public or via PM.
JB
I can understand the reluctance to go public too early, but I'd be well p1ssed off if my engine was wrecked by a tuner only to find out later that said tuner had got previous bad form.
Is there a way to avoid this situation in future?:search:
it would be an interesting discussion, but at this point we can see no way of making it simpler.
Even now with the comments in this thread people are still happy to take their car to Dan (and that may say something for his level of expertise), and Dan has been in touch to say that nothing he did was wrong or out of the ordinary.
So even now it looks like I may have stepped in too early but who's to say. Certainly the trader is less than pleased.
It was hoped that the trader feedback process and the dispute resolution forum could bring a lot more of the disputed situations out in the open but it hasnt. Its only when somebody is willing to go public in this way that it all comes out and by then its sometimes too late for many others.
JB
tooquicktostop
04-07-07, 16:43
So on a tuned engine an aftermarket knock monitoring system might be an idea then?? Are we talking huge money for this then? Just so I know, the piston crowns are they normally dimpled like that or is that pitting from detonation?? Also I had been led to believe by a man thats on holidays for a few years that the iridium plugs are a bad thing and that the ceramics fall out of them under det conditions. He then showed me my old engine with a whacking great hole in a piston where he'd gotten det and the centre of the spark plug had hit the piston. He said to use coppers until you were sure you had no det as they don't fall apart. He knew a thing or two as he ran the first UK car to a 10 second quarter so I took that as gospel.
Have you managed to strip that engine down yourself?? If you can do that kind of work yourself then at least some of the costs of this mishap will be less.
Do people think that it would be cheaper to fix the engine or replace it with a second hand item?? How much does it cost to fit bigger better pistons etc and is that actually an option here?
I am having my car mapped in a couple of weeks and am aware that similar things may happen as I stated before it happens to all the tuners at some point in time. Knowing what it could cost before I squeeze a bit more boost out is always a good idea.
Thats funny I know someone who just brought that 10 second cars engine :innocent:
dangerous brain
04-07-07, 16:55
Hopefully not the one that had a hole in the piston then lol.
it would be an interesting discussion, but at this point we can see no way of making it simpler.
Even now with the comments in this thread people are still happy to take their car to Dan (and that may say something for his level of expertise), and Dan has been in touch to say that nothing he did was wrong or out of the ordinary.
JB
The thing is though he would say it was nothing he has done cause he dont wanna pay for it. But as many of the more knowledgeable have confirmed, that damage has happened due to detenation. Dean confirmed the pistons were ok when the head was off a few weeks before.
:shrug:
http://www.chriswilson.tv/knock.wma for what knock sounds like on one of these. Timing at 4000 RPM, 17 degrees, no knock, 27 dgrees, lots of knock, back to 17 degrees, no knock.
Wow.. that's really interesting.. kind of hard to miss. Was that on a supra engine?
I'm surprised that not more of us use the knock amps and such like with either auto shutdown or a big red light on the dash... If your car is tuned close to the bone then a change in weather or hardware would push it over and you may never know before it's too late.
http://www.chriswilson.tv/knock.wma for what knock sounds like on one of these. Timing at 4000 RPM, 17 degrees, no knock, 27 dgrees, lots of knock, back to 17 degrees, no knock. Lots of info on the Knock Box site.
Blimey that is lots of knock, never heard that much before :blink:
Wonder if all the people with fancy sound systems could wire it up to an AUX in and have it playing loud while mapping :D
Not an option for me since I have no stereo.
Chris Wilson
04-07-07, 23:26
The knock level was deliberately made very noticeable by bizarre changes in advance, just to show what you might expect to hear through the headphones in a serious knock situation. real world knock may not be as obvious, by any means. The change in advance is severe, even for an N/A engine, it's obviously done to show pretty much worse case scenarios. (IMO)
tooquicktostop
18-01-08, 10:13
Seems a long time ago but I am going into Pheonix tomorrow to watch the engine hopefully go into the car, the Brian Crower rods went in this week and the sump and rebuilt head going on today, will take the camera to get plenty of pictures :)
Seems a long time ago but I am going into Pheonix tomorrow to watch the engine hopefully go into the car, the Brian Crower rods went in this week and the sump and rebuilt head going on today, will take the camera to get plenty of pictures :)
best of luck dude, hope it goes better than the last time
Seems a long time ago but I am going into Pheonix tomorrow to watch the engine hopefully go into the car, the Brian Crower rods went in this week and the sump and rebuilt head going on today, will take the camera to get plenty of pictures :)
excellent news, now whip mine out while your there;)
Great news nightmare nearly over, Mark knows his onions
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