asking the inevitable - Single? Worth the money/hassle

I know this has been done before and is probably going to piss a lot of people off, but due to recent events I was hoping for a freindly debate on this subject. I have been hoarding parts for a single for the past year but now starting to wonder if its really worth doing after seeing a few engines going pop, and all the others being off the road with issues, which I might add sucks for all those involved!

Every other day on here now I hear about some sort of mapping issues, air leaks, non starters, wastegate control problems its an endless list, as said in a previous thread, prob 1 or 2 in 10 single cars run perfectly, all the others seem to have some sort of issue. Im starting to think a mint, low low milage BPU car with all the trimmings is the way to go in terms of money and reliability and minimal headaches

My other thought was if I did go single as it seems to be a waste of all the parts ive hoarded, is to lean more towards a a larger single but leave the boost at a moderate level and maybe try and use a piggy back ECU to avoid all the intense mapping needed with AEM/Motec etc

All views on this welcome guys, im hopiing for some interesting reading

Mikey

I have been thinking the same, however, my decision is, if/when this hybrids give up their will to live, I will move to a small single. I will be looking along the lines of GT35R, so no silly boost figures.

I am thinking that a little more power should be more than sufficient for my needs.

But I want to spend some time, effort and money on the handling dynamics of the car first.

I can't give you a technical reply but I also read all the threads with interest.

Personally I am sticking with twins, I'm very happy with my 1/2 BPU (1.05 bar) and going to go up very slowly and methodically with well researched steps to about 400 - 430 bhp.

So far everything has been added methodically, first prepping for BPU (tyres, BOV, Wideband, plugs, filter, exhaust, better brake pads & lines) and some bling of course Seats replaced etc.

Now I'll be very slowly adding things like upgraded SMIC, replacing old pipes etc. before going any higher boost.

Just my £0.02

i will let you know hopefully tomorow:D

i will let you know hopefully tomorow:D

Fingers crossed all goes well mate

I can't give you a technical reply but I also read all the threads with interest.

 

Personally I am sticking with twins, I'm very happy with my 1/2 BPU (1.05 bar) and going to go up very slowly and methodically with well researched steps to about 400 - 430 bhp.

 

So far everything has been added methodically, first prepping for BPU (tyres, BOV, Wideband, plugs, filter, exhaust, better brake pads & lines) and some bling of course Seats replaced etc.

 

Now I'll be very slowly adding things like upgraded SMIC, replacing old pipes etc. before going any higher boost.

 

Just my £0.02

Logical. Saves money in the end bud.

Yes it is worth it, if you could see the faces of the people I have taken for a ride, plus my own face everytime I go for it, then you would know it is worth it.

Getting a single installed and up and running can be expensive compared to running and setting up a BPU TT - BUT it isn't that expensive when compared to the cars you can subsequently leave in your wake.

Let's say that you end up with a single supra that, including the cost of the car, owes you 'say' £20k. You find me another car for £20k with the same power, appeal, looks etc. Plus the supra is a capable car and can handle the power, lay it down if properly setup and still turns heads. My car has good mechanical grip and handles very well given the power.

Yes it can be done for less, but previous single discussions have left me with the impression that £10k is a sensible budget for a GOOD single setup.

The results are definitely worth it Mikey if done correctly. ie.

1. The right parts

2. The right tuner.

3. Be prepared to spend the money required.

II will be looking along the lines of GT35R, so no silly boost figures.

 

I am thinking that a little more power should be more than sufficient for my needs.

Little?

There is a HUGE difference between hybrids and a GT35R. On paper it may only be around 100+hp increase, but the way the power is delivered makes it feel twice as quick in real life on the road.

I my GT35R

The results are definitely worth it Mikey if done correctly. ie.

 

1. The right parts

 

2. The right tuner.

 

3. Be prepared to spend the money required.

With all due respect, I think that everyone who has gone single has complied with all of the above, and they can still get problems. Going single is not an exact science as far as I can tell!

I dont agree, most people skimp on at least one if not more when going down the single route, I know what you mean though, Im thinking although the supra is an over built car....is it really strong enough without being fully built to handle a single, especially when parts are getting old etc

Talk to people that have been there before, off line. They'll tell you more offline than they will on here...

There have been a lot of people stung recently by listening to the praise certain individuals have been dishing out for company's that quite honestly haven't lived upto the hype. Those that knew better were quite honestly tired of being shouted down by the fanboi's and had given up publically trying to give good advice.

My advice,

Talk to a number of garages...

The cheapest quote is NOT usually the best...

Talk to the people that have had long term success with a single, copy what they did where applicable (you arn't re-inventing the wheel here).

Use known proven parts only. Do your research come up with a spec list, post and PM it before buying anything.

Listen to the advice given re: the parts. Don't be stubborn we arn't here to see members cars get trashed.

7-12k isn't unreasonable inc Labour for a fully working setup.

Don't map beyond 1.5bar on pump fuel!

Going single is not an exact science as far as I can tell!

No reason why it shouldn't be if done correctly.

If I lived in the UK and wanted to go single, I would visit Chris Wilson, discuss with him what I was wanting. Take onboard all his advice, and be prepared to spend what it takes to do the job properly.

Yes if you are looking at doubling the stock power you are going to wear out parts quicker and occasionally even quality parts will fail, but if the build is done correctly, mapped correctly and the limits of power are not pushed excessively (eg. set up to run 1.2bar-1.4bar not 1.8bar). Then there is no reason why a single turbo Supra cannot be a reliable everyday car.

Little?

 

There is a HUGE difference between hybrids and a GT35R. On paper it may only be around 100+hp increase, but the way the power is delivered makes it feel twice as quick in real life on the road.

 

I my GT35R

I realise that there is a huge difference, but I will never run more than is adequate. I dont like the idea of things being at the limit all the time...

I would love to love mine... but I am still waiting for prices.......

I dont agree, most people skimp on at least one if not more when going down the single route, I know what you mean though, Im thinking although the supra is an over built car....is it really strong enough without being fully built to handle a single, especially when parts are getting old etc

I am doing things right, I hope... not skimping on anything. And so far including the car, all mods so far, engine build, interior and exterior work my total is at 14K...

So hopefully everything is in place to just get the single parts, install and map. All the supporting mods should be in place.

Talk to people that have been there before, off line. They'll tell you more offline than they will on here...

 

There have been a lot of people stung recently by listening to the praise certain individuals have been dishing out for company's that quite honestly haven't lived upto the hype. Those that knew better were quite honestly tired of being shouted down by the fanboi's and had given up publically trying to give good advice.

 

My advice,

 

Talk to a number of garages...

The cheapest quote is NOT usually the best...

Talk to the people that have had long term success with a single, copy what they did where applicable (you arn't re-inventing the wheel here).

Use known proven parts only. Do your research come up with a spec list, post and PM it before buying anything.

Listen to the advice given re: the parts. Don't be stubborn we arn't here to see members cars get trashed.

7-12k isn't unreasonable inc Labour for a fully working setup.

Don't map beyond 1.5bar on pump fuel!

Some very good advise

Alex has hit the nail on the head there. I'd also add this:

Get your car working 100% mechanically and electrically before unbolting anything. Do not modify a car with existing problems.

Do your research - the devil is in the details. A build can be delayed days and days because you forgot you needed a new gasket or a crush washer or something stupid like that.

Don't chase the numbers. 1.4bar of boost on a decent setup is as much as you'll want on the street, it's perfectly runnable on pump fuel, and most of the favourite turbos on here run most efficiently at that pressure level. A stock bottom end that has been cared for will take that power level nicely.

And to reiterate, be prepared to spend the money. We are already seeing the fallout of the lowest bidder approach.

-Ian

Those that knew better were quite honestly tired of being shouted down by the fanboi's and had given up publically trying to give good advice.

Don't give up, many people might not post up a reply and you may only see the fanboi's posts (whatever that word means) but, many do read the good advice.

Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees on here but, if you look hard enough, there are some good people/advice here and this is why we joined the club.

Don't let the flag wavers oppress the real club spirit.

Don't give up, many people might not post up a reply and you may only see the fanboi's posts (whatever that word means) [/b]

Also know as the FPSTB - Fifty Pound Shiny Thing Brigade.

The people who spend about £50 on something shiny from a box shifter, get it roughly when promised, and based purely on this transaction will inexplicably defend said box shifters' tuning/mapping/mechanical abilities as perfect and infallible to their dying breath.

Despite a) having no personal experience of it at all and b) any contrary hard evidence plainly facing them, they will unleash vitriol on anyone who dares say anything negative despite whatever engine blowups, clearly crap workmanship, dangerous practicies, or incredibly duff advice is staring them in the face.

That's a fanboi. They are also easily led by cups of tea and free sweets.

-Ian

Also know as the FPSTB - Fifty Pound Shiny Thing Brigade.

 

The people who spend about £50 on something shiny from a box shifter, get it roughly when promised, and based purely on this transaction will inexplicably defend said box shifters' tuning/mapping/mechanical abilities as perfect and infallible to their dying breath.

 

Despite a) having no personal experience of it at all and b) any contrary hard evidence plainly facing them, they will unleash vitriol on anyone who dares say anything negative despite whatever engine blowups, clearly crap workmanship, dangerous practicies, or incredibly duff advice is staring them in the face.

 

That's a fanboi. They are also easily led by cups of tea and free sweets.

 

-Ian

quite impressed with this post and it does make a lot of sense;) regards ex fanboi:D

I'm sure there's plenty of single turbo Supras running great, you just don't get to hear about them.

The only problem I've had with mine was when the bearings on the state-of-the-ark PHR1 turbo died for no apparent reason. Now the turbo has been replaced with something a little more modern it's brilliant.

I really should pull my finger out and get the map adjusted to allow for the larger turbo and the different exhaust the car has now compared to when it was mapped, but it drives great, always starts, never overheats, etc etc. What more do you want?

Having said that, there aren't any cheapo parts on mine, as far as I know. It's all brand name stuff (Motec, Garrett, HKS, Power Enterprise, HKS, HKS, HKS) no eBay stuff.

For the record, Dan Turner mapped my car last and I'm very happy with the work he did.

I've not really had any problems with mine since I had the AEM ECU fitted and mapped that would be around 5 months of hassle free single turbo driving. I have also just fitted a new turbo kit so we'll see how things go.

Thanks Ian

I'm sure there's plenty of single turbo Supras running great, you just don't get to hear about them.

Absolutely, and dare I even say it some that were installed by the tea makers of Milton Keynes

In all fairness I have to say that no one should "go single" if they can't accept the thing *MAY* blow up. Years ago (early eighties actually) I had an N/A Cosworth engine built by one of the UK's top engine builders. Cost over 12K which would be about 20K+ in current money, and it dropped a valve on the (engine) dyno. Virtually no casting was salvageable, the crank was bent, the rods knackered, the block holed, blah blah. It was, and still is accepcted that race or heavily modded engines can and do fail, even brand new ones. it was a bitter pill to swallow, but brought things into perspective and I had to pull in my horns and build something myself, simpler and less powerful, as my budget was well and truly blown.

HOWEVER, I really do think a lot of people have totally unrealistic expectations of how much a proper engine build costs, and what supporting hardware is needed to make a heavily modified engine last. People talk silly BHP figures, when even 500 real BHP from a 3 litre road car engine on pump fuel is very respectable, and some figures are plainly utter rubbish. They also seem to think (due to the US babble, IMO) that there is something magical about the 2JZ-GTE engine and the JZA80 drivetrain. There is NOTHING terribly remarkable about it, it's well a made sports tourer, with an excellent straight six engine, with a huge amount of (at the time of inception) cutting edge sequential turbo development, and a state of the art auto box, in none manual cars. None of this means the design team detuned it from something built to give 700 HP, nor did they design the drivetrain for weekend jollies to "The`Pod" One also has to consider the wiseness in nailing serious tuning bits on an engine that's done 100,000 miles, and that's already tired and in need of a refresh. Finally, when your monster single conversion is done, mapped and behaving beautifully, do not be under ANY illusion you still have the same reliability, maintenance schedules, or running costs of a stock or "BPU" car. You have entered a different world, and you need to view it without the aid of rose tinted spectacles. It's going to cost, and carry on costing. If it wasn't the case don't you think Toyota would have junked all that mega expensive sequential stuff and gone cap in hand to China for a deal on single turbo kits?

Deffinatly worth it but you need deep pockets to do it right, and if you drive it hard things will break, every time i drive my car it puts a huge on my face, the thing is mental.

Deffinatly worth it but you need deep pockets to do it right, and if you drive it hard things will break, every time i drive my car it puts a huge on my face, the thing is mental.

What with you and your huge grin, and the diff splitting its sides, it's better than The Comedians When does the engine wet itself, that's what I want to know [Couldn't resist, sorry Jamie...]